Ripper Anatomy Class

[Errata]

Having once been a serial killer with a Home Office license endorsed by the Royal College of Surgeons, I can offer some practical experience to this debate. Fortunately for mankind, my victims weren’t human and they sacrificed their lives to provide the benefits that modern medicine provides.

That made me laugh really hard. I have a friend who is a biochemist, and I was trying to get her to explain her highly technical job to me. she said:
"On a good day? I cure cancer."
"On a bad day?"
"I kill mice."

As someone with actual albeit tiny surgical experience, I have two questions for you.
1: Is either skin or blood vessel tougher to cut? As in, what would take longer, the abdominal incisions or the freeing of organs?
2: Does the heart empty upon exsanguination, or do the chambers hold blood until it is emptied by other means?

[protohistorian]

Errata I am no surgeon, but I have an angle on this. I have helped my brother dissect deer for consumption and it seemed to me the blood vessels were tougher. I leave this for professional confirmation however, Dave

[Errata]

Something just occurred to me looking at these wounds. Do we know which way JtR cut into the abdomen?
A butcher starts at the pubis and with a sort of sawing motion go up to the sternum, using the point of a blade. You get a straight line with rough edges. In field dressing you might also get a few stabs and nicks to the organs.
A doctor starts at the sternum and slices down to the pubis. But a doctor uses the edge of a blade, like holding a pen. He would not necessarily reach the abdominal cavity with the first cut. But he would trace back down the original cut until he did. If survival was not a factor, he would exert more force on the edge, and would probably end up with long slices in the organs. But still a straight line.
Looking at these illustrations, it appears that he started at the sternum, stabbed, pulled until it got difficult, stabbed again, pulled, etc. until reaching the pubis. It looks as though it may have been several cuts not quite connected until he reached in and pulled the flaps apart, ripping the last bits of connecting skin apart. Not really the most efficient of quickest method.
So if JtR had either a butcher's or medical professional's knowledge of the more efficient methods, why didn't he use them? Time was clearly a factor. Now I'm kinda curious about this.

[protohistorian]

Stride's neck wound

description,"The incision in the neck commenced on the left side, 2 inches below the angle of the jaw, and almost in a direct line with it, nearly severing the vessels on that side, cutting the windpipe completely in two, and terminating on the opposite side 1 inch below the angle of the right jaw."

I have made the operational assumption the cut reached the vertebra. The exact line was determined by the severance of the windpipe and the vertebral position. Dave

[protohistorian]

Something just occurred to me looking at these wounds. Do we know which way JtR cut into the abdomen?
A butcher starts at the pubis and with a sort of sawing motion go up to the sternum, using the point of a blade. You get a straight line with rough edges. In field dressing you might also get a few stabs and nicks to the organs.
A doctor starts at the sternum and slices down to the pubis. But a doctor uses the edge of a blade, like holding a pen. He would not necessarily reach the abdominal cavity with the first cut. But he would trace back down the original cut until he did. If survival was not a factor, he would exert more force on the edge, and would probably end up with long slices in the organs. But still a straight line.
Looking at these illustrations, it appears that he started at the sternum, stabbed, pulled until it got difficult, stabbed again, pulled, etc. until reaching the pubis. It looks as though it may have been several cuts not quite connected until he reached in and pulled the flaps apart, ripping the last bits of connecting skin apart. Not really the most efficient of quickest method.
So if JtR had either a butcher's or medical professional's knowledge of the more efficient methods, why didn't he use them? Time was clearly a factor. Now I'm kinda curious about this.

...and doesn't that make a very solid argument against an ordered mind committing the crimes? Dave

[protohistorian]

and Stride did not scream because...

... she could not. Severed structures of the Stride neck wound include but are not limited to:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sternocleidomastoid_muscle
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_jugular_vein
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quadratus_plantae_muscle
4. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagus_nerve
5. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truncus_Sympaticus
6. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoglossal_nerve
7. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_laryngeal_nerve
8. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_vein
9. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/External_carotid_artery
10. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_laryngeal_nerve
11. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constrictores_pharyngis
12. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epiglottic_cartilage
13. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Submental_artery
15. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mylohyoideus
16.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geniohyoid_muscle
17. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyoglossus
18. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stylohyoideus
19. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thyreohyoideus
20. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharynx
Dave

[protohistorian]

Kate's nose

description,"The tip of the nose was quite detached by an oblique cut from the bottom of the nasal bone to where the wings of the nose join on to the face."
...and here you go. Dave

[joelhall]

Thanks for the post DG, very well done. However I do have some point I disagree with:

In larger animals and humans I would imagine the procedure would be easier because the whole hand could be inserted with less delicacy and more “grasping” capability.

Now this is quite true to an extent. It is far easier to get your hands into a human rib-cage, and far easier to grab hold of the heart (to some extent). However, the organs of the abdominal cavity would prevent this and have to be removed, as they too are larger, and of course heavier. The major vessels of course are larger and stronger, as is the attachment of the lungs, of course the pericardium is stronger in a larger mammal.

Of course there are many reasons I believe that Kelly was killed by a different hand, and that her killer had some knowledge, whilst that of the other women did not.

• It is most certainly necessary to have the knowledge to know where, how and what to do and nothing is random if a specific organ is to be removed.

• Some of the mutilations indicate surgical skill no matter how crudely other aspects might seem, particularly Chapman’s uterus, Eddowes’s kidney and Kelly’s heart. It is easier for the skilled to display ignorance on demand, but the ignorant cannot demonstrate skill when required. I don’t believe a butcher or slaughterman would go out of their way to remove a kidney from its capsule or a heart from the pericardium, this could be done once the organs were removed.

• The organs removed were “targeted” not for any intrinsic value of the organs but for their symbolic relevance to the killer’s personal narrative.

This is where I differ. I do not believe the organs were targeted in the first place. If they were they would of course have been missing in all cases, but only twice was the uterus taken away. This is of course another reason for not suspecting Kelly to have the same killer - despite being removed the uterus was left behind, under the head, as were the kidneys. I agree with an act of symbolism being likely, but the way in which the organs were removed seems remarkably bad. Where uteri were extracted the methods of removal differed substantially, which seems odd for someone with experience who would have developed his own method for efficiency and become used to it.

I'll have to apologise for the late reply. I originally prepared a long, technical, quite unreadable post on this (even for me), but instead later in the week I'm going to start recreating the method of the killing and mutilations which will be easier for most people to follow. I fear this may take some time, but should be an interesting exercise at the least.

I believe that the idea of the organs being removed after the bodies were removed from the scene can hold some merit, but we do not have to assume that the killer had much knowledge or skill if he did indeed remove the organs, as I will demonstrate.

[Errata]

...and doesn't that make a very solid argument against an ordered mind committing the crimes? Dave

Yes, or a possible exclusion of doctor and butcher types. Or even an extremely "ordered" mind who purposefully did not use known techniques to cover their trail.

I have found so far that there is no such thing as a disordered mind. The order just is not necessarily apparent. Even psychotics and schizophrenics have a logical explanation and set of rules for their behavior. It just isn't based in reality. The literal method to the madness. Whatever JtR's reasons or motives were, there is a logic to it. Somewhere.

I read a book called The God Particle, and the author used an illustration that I think fits. I will paraphrase:
Imagine aliens land. They are an advanced culture, but cannot see the colors black and white. They are taken to a World Cup match and they are very confused. Clearly it is a contest, clearly it is scored, but not being able to see the ball, they have no idea how scoring is accomplished. Through the course of the game, they determine an elaborate point system based on the speed of the strikers, the height and length of the goalie jumps, etc. And it fits, but it is terribly complicated. And then one of the younger aliens says "lets imagine for a moment that there is an invisible ball. The players are kicking it into the goal, and the goalie is trying to stop them." Its clearly a more elegant and sensible solution, barring the fact that there is no such thing as an invisible soccer ball. Except that there is such thing.

No matter what humans do, how random or crazy or beyond the pale, there is always an invisible soccer ball. Find it, and everything falls into place.

[protohistorian]

Very, very well said my friend. Dave

[Investigator]

Hello agin,
Errata, I share the humour in your anecdote, some pathologists survive their detachment through humour. The question of medical research ethics is not one I wish to debate, but suffice to say that my introduction you quoted was necessary to provide context to what followed.

The questions you pose are both provoking and insightful. Tissue resilience has important forensic implications and assailing mesenteric attachments can be a nightmare in the obese that is both time consuming and obstructive in feeling and discriminating organs. So much so that it can well go on the list of skill demand in respect to Chapman.

Briefly for those unfamiliar with skin histology. The outer layer of skin (the epidermis) is composed of layers of dead horn-like cells that are resistant to insults from the environment. Below the epidermis are collagenous fibres over a subcutaneous layer of fat cells. This subcutaneous structure is like a shock absorber that deforms under pressure, returning to its original condition once the pressure is released.
With moderate force focused at a knife point the epidermis will resist puncture by absorbing the force into the elastic fibres and the fat cushion. With increasing force the knife point can break through the epidermis meeting little resistance from tissues underneath.

With an incising knife edge, the force is spread over a wider area requiring greater force to cut the epidermis. If the knife is drawn across the epidermis the leading edge of the knife will pucker up small rolls of deformed skin. As force is increased these rolls will give way producing an irregular edge to the incision. The blunter the knife, the greater force required and the more jagged the incision becomes.

The thickness of epidermis and subcutaneous structure varies in different parts of the body. The skin of the neck is quite thin whereas the abdomen, particularly in the female, can have a deep subcutaneous fat layer. While the skin may be thin on the neck it is also loose and an incising knife can well drag skin forward ahead of the edge thus producing an irregular jagged incision. To overcome both loose skin and subcutaneous deformation it is usual to tighten the skin with the hand at the point of entry of the knife, thus allowing reduced force on the knife.

Mr Ripper was unlikely to be able to do this with any certitude, but stretching the neck by a throttle or jaw hold, or in the case of Stride, her scarf, could have facilitated the incision.
I’ll leave the fatty abdomen to the imagination but the visual removal of organs in such a case would probably be of little help in organ discrimination. It could have been a hopeless task in a tight time frame to feel the kidney in an obese victim.
I haven't much time at present to make a response to recent posts but will get back when I can. DG

[The Grave Maurice]

I avoided this thread for quite some time because I have a rather weak stomach. But it turns out that the diagrams and insightful comments are very helpful in understanding the case. Thank you all very much for your efforts.

[Errata]

I just thought of something else, and have also proven that I have the most understanding fiance in the world, or the dumbest.

The facial bruises are in the wrong place for someone being choked. I tried this from in front, behind and on the ground. (thanks to my fiance/stunt victim) Only the most awkward method of pressing the heels of the hands into the windpipe while holding the jaw came close. The only thing that I did that would make those bruises was to tilt the head up for a throat cut by grasping the lower jaw. Now from the front, this was impossible because then you have to cut around your own arm. But from behind it works.

The other thing the experiment accomplished was explaining the two cuts some victims had. I suppose he could have meant to cut from ear to ear, got hung up on the trachea and so repositioned the knife. But the other thing that came out was that if I was behind my fiance holding his jaw up and cutting his throat, I could get to the middle before things got a bit awkward. But I had severed his major blood vessels, so know I have to try and keep him upright so I pulled my hand away from his jaw to reposition it to hold him up. Bless his little theatrical heart, he dropped in a mock swoon which dragged the spoon (mock knife) across his neck, jerking it out of my hand when it hung up on his ear. We replaced the spoon with a marker to see what happened, and if I cut his throat to the middle, and then pushed him off of the knife you get those exact cuts. If he turned on the way down, like if his legs were a little crossed or had one foot in front of the other the second cut moves. He assures me that the force applied by intent is much greater than the force applied by sliding down the blade. The same marks happened if I twisted his head toward me without dropping the knife.

This raises all new questions. A medical professional knows that you don't have to cut the throat from ear to ear. Cut the blood vessels or the trachea, and that's it. Anything else is for show. A shochet knows this as well. If the lesser cuts are hesitation marks or an attempt to make that wide a cut, then JtR is neither a doctor or a shochet. If those marks are from pushing someone off the blade, then he is not making the attempt to cut from ear to ear, and knows it to be unnecessary. Which requires either medical knowledge, or enough experience in throat slitting to have observed this. But then if the victim's throats were cut standing, where did the blood go? I used to have a peacoat, which made me wonder...

If a man is wearing a dark wool coat, and he cuts a woman's throat from behind and immediately twists her head towards the wound into either his shoulder or his chest, would the combination of the the pressure on the wound from the twisting and the absorbency of the coat mask any arterial spurt?

Any wagers as to whether or not my fiance is going to come to bed tonight?

[protohistorian]

He will come Errata, have no fear. Good points you have made, well done. Give the guy my regards for being a sport. Dave

[protohistorian]

really?

Investigator on jagged wounds,"With an incising knife edge, the force is spread over a wider area requiring greater force to cut the epidermis. If the knife is drawn across the epidermis the leading edge of the knife will pucker up small rolls of deformed skin. As force is increased these rolls will give way producing an irregular edge to the incision. The blunter the knife, the greater force required and the more jagged the incision becomes."

Does that mean that Eddowes was attacked with a block of cheese? Dave