Ripper Anatomy Class

[protohistorian]

Tabram context

listed injuries:
5 wounds (left lung)
2 wounds (right lung)
1 wound (heart)
5 wounds (liver)
2 wounds (spleen)
6 wounds (stomach)

Images with red objects have the red object as the heart. Of note, the sternum does not completely cover the heart, the intercostal spaces are greater than the ribs, and on the silhouette, the heart is 9.52% of the boxed area.

[Errata]

There are occasions of men strangling THEMSELVES to death, by accident, for sexual pleasure. I dimly remember a politician in Burgess Hill , Sussex,
killing himself by accident with a pair of tights and an orange in the mouth..
how does this work ?

Okay, I don't know how I missed this before but you just TOTALLY saved my sanity. For YEARS I have been recounting the story of this guy as a reason why you have to prepared for any and all questions if you are going to let your kid watch the news. A: nobody believed me and B: everyone from my parents to teachers to occasional web searches has denied this ever happened.

I could kiss you.

[protohistorian]

Tabram

5 wounds (left lung)
2 wounds (right lung)
1 wound (heart)
5 wounds (liver)
2 wounds (spleen)
6 wounds (stomach)
Dave

[protohistorian]

stature from skeletal assemblages

How tall was a Victorian on average? Dave

[Errata]

The blood vessels don't work like a water balloon however, as our blood is inside vessels not sitting inside our bodies like a balloon holds water. Cutting different types of vessel has different effects.

I'm juggling a couple of books here, and without any understanding of the multiquote option, never mind that I'm kinda thinking out loud, so please bear with me.

1:My dad's old medical textbook says that the average blood pressure is a little under 2 psi. Which isn't a whole lot, but clearly enough to cause arterial spurt. But it also says a completely severed carotid pulses out only about a foot, for maybe half a minute. The only pressure being exerted on it is that of the pulse. A small nick in the carotid can evidently result in the cartoonish spray we are used to from the movies. But when it is completely severed, it's not really a spray. I guess its about like rhythmically squeezing a garden hose shut. It pulses, but it doesn't shoot out really hard.

2: Yeah, he would have to be at the head and tilting back using the jaw, but since she isn't struggling I can't imagine why he would need so tight a grip as to bruise the jaw.

3: Yeah I'm not sure the bending over totally works. In my head I see a taller man standing about at her shoulder as she bends over to pick up her skirts, grabs her jaw yanking her head back and cutting in almost a single motion. But something's not right about that either. Although gripping someone by the jaw and forcing their head back is a pretty good submission maneuver. As is bending someone backwards. Hmm.

4: If someone cut the throat of someone on their back, wouldn't the central point of the wound be the trachea with the edges of the wound roughly equidistant from the ears? So it would be a central cut with each edge about an inch from the ear?

And you brought up that seeing the knife would cause a struggle. People struggle like nobodies business when they are being strangled. Firstly, I'm not sure some of these women could be choked with just hands, which at least allows the strangler the ability to close in and limit the victims movements with his own body (although he's going to look like he was beaten with bats). Which would mean an arm around the throat, but opens it up to clawing and kicking and hitting. It takes 3 minutes to choke someone unconscious. 5 minutes to kill them. The witness said he heard a quiet "no" and something hitting the fence. He should have heard her kicking through the fence. Choking isn't quiet. It's just quiet compared to a gunshot. Anyone within 50 feet should have heard the fights these women should have put up. They shouldn't have a single fingernail left on their hands, broken toes from kicking, impact points from flailing arms and legs, scrapes and bruises everywhere. And they don't. And I don't know why not. But I can think of a reason they would get a knife to their throat and not scream. They wouldn't scream if they thought they were being robbed. Aside from happening all the time, they didn't have anything on them worth dying for.

Oh! But I did find one reason a tongue would swell and protrude without being strangled. And no matter what may have happened pre-mortem, may in fact be one of the reasons the tongue was swelling like that. Dry drowning.

[protohistorian]

Tabram stab distribution

The colored numbers on the bottom indicate the number of stabs in organs outlined in color. Dave

[joelhall]

I'm juggling a couple of books here, and without any understanding of the multiquote option, never mind that I'm kinda thinking out loud, so please bear with me.

1:My dad's old medical textbook says that the average blood pressure is a little under 2 psi. Which isn't a whole lot, but clearly enough to cause arterial spurt. But it also says a completely severed carotid pulses out only about a foot, for maybe half a minute. The only pressure being exerted on it is that of the pulse. A small nick in the carotid can evidently result in the cartoonish spray we are used to from the movies. But when it is completely severed, it's not really a spray. I guess its about like rhythmically squeezing a garden hose shut. It pulses, but it doesn't shoot out really hard.

This is true, the average would be around 2 psi, slightly higher than this during a heart contraction. Diastolic would be below 2 psi, and systolic would be above 2 psi, in a person with a normal healthy range of blood pressure (around 2.3 according to the calculator at a systolic pressure of 120mmHg). I used the word spray, which is really as a generic term for a jet of blood leaving the artery, as it suirt, spurt, jet, etc. If you severe the artery the blood is going to spray out. The actual distnace of course depends on pressure. The higher the pressure the further it will go. Generally a foot is average, it can be as little as a few inches or as high at 18 inches in normal circumstances. This does not sound a great deal, but it is quite sufficient to cause tell-tale signs, and of course it may be even higher in some circumstances. It will still obey gravity and continue based on the height of the neck of course. During each heart beat the victim would lose on average 0.1L during the first few seconds, declining as the pressure and blood volume does.

If the pressure is raised significantly, say during combat, panic or heavy work and the artery becomes severed this could go even further than the normal ditance. The pressure here could reach 3 psi or more (systolic). During running apparently systolic pressure can rise to 200 hhHg (3.67 psi) or during more strenuous activities even as high as 300 mmHg (5.8 psi). I don't know how accurate these are how often they apply to the general population, but this can be quite telling.

Of course some people may be hypertensive, which is often difficult to tell unless it was known in life, or led to the cause of death. I'm not of course suggesting that they may have pressures as high as this. But we do have to remind ourselves of factors which affect the arterial spray. this could be narrowing of the arteries, or hardening, high blood pressure, low blood pressure, blockages of the blood vessels, etc.

Given the average, 14 inches from the ground seems about right for a normal pressure in the case of Chapman, taking into account the height of the artery from the ground. This is of course assuming she was still alive, and sadly, we do not know what pattern was produced on the wall, which could clear things up pretty quickly. This blood could well be from the artery, although we do not know for sure. To be honest I wouldn't think it particularly likely, but it simply mustn't be ruled out yet.

2: Yeah, he would have to be at the head and tilting back using the jaw, but since she isn't struggling I can't imagine why he would need so tight a grip as to bruise the jaw.

Simply because now the body is acting as a dead weight, and the head has to be held back whilst the cut is made. If he let the grip up the head would simply tilt forwards again, and the skin and tissues would not be as taut making them move during cutting and adding time. There's also another reason for the amount of force used - when working quickly and placing force behind the knife he would naturally use more force with the other hand. Like cutting meat, the more effort you put behind the knife the stronger you will hold onto the other side of the meat.

While cutting of course, the there is also the involuntary contraction of the muscles around the vessels to act against.

strengthening the grip is a fairly natural reaction especially when using hands in different directions.

[QUOTE=Errata;147994]3: Yeah I'm not sure the bending over totally works. In my head I see a taller man standing about at her shoulder as she bends over to pick up her skirts, grabs her jaw yanking her head back and cutting in almost a single motion. But something's not right about that either. Although gripping someone by the jaw and forcing their head back is a pretty good submission maneuver. As is bending someone backwards. Hmm.

Another point is that if someone were bending over in front of you and you in turn bent over them (I've an inkling it might look as if I'm going off topic here), your centre of gravity will be shifted much more than theirs. Once you cut the throat they will go down and you will be going after them, especially if you have their head in your hand. The taller someone gets the more off balance he will be bending over someone else, with only the other body for support.

4: If someone cut the throat of someone on their back, wouldn't the central point of the wound be the trachea with the edges of the wound roughly equidistant from the ears? So it would be a central cut with each edge about an inch from the ear?

No, it would be wherever the knife reached to in a visual sense, and of course depend on the length of the knife. The killers main point of attack may have been directly over the trachea, as this is obvious the most prominent part, but the knife itself as it cut downwards would enlarge the cut.

Another possibility of course is a sharp knife drawn from one side to the other, going deeper as it passed the centre of the neck. This would be a much easier and faster movement.

The other point is that with the head being tilted back, this changes the angle of attack somewhat. If you pull your own head back and draw your finger across, you will see that the knife would make a diferent cut to one where the head is in the normal position, pretty much from ear to ear. If the head is tilted to one side slightly it would be easy to cut the way this killer has.

And you brought up that seeing the knife would cause a struggle. People struggle like nobodies business when they are being strangled. Firstly, I'm not sure some of these women could be choked with just hands, which at least allows the strangler the ability to close in and limit the victims movements with his own body (although he's going to look like he was beaten with bats). Which would mean an arm around the throat, but opens it up to clawing and kicking and hitting. It takes 3 minutes to choke someone unconscious. 5 minutes to kill them. The witness said he heard a quiet "no" and something hitting the fence. He should have heard her kicking through the fence. Choking isn't quiet. It's just quiet compared to a gunshot. Anyone within 50 feet should have heard the fights these women should have put up. They shouldn't have a single fingernail left on their hands, broken toes from kicking, impact points from flailing arms and legs, scrapes and bruises everywhere. And they don't. And I don't know why not. But I can think of a reason they would get a knife to their throat and not scream. They wouldn't scream if they thought they were being robbed. Aside from happening all the time, they didn't have anything on them worth dying for.

This depends on what you know of strangling, and of course if a ligature was used it would make things even worse.

When high pressure is placed around the throat, it will effectively prevent sound by preventing air escaping the trachea. The normal instinct of someone being strangled is not to go nuts kicking every which way, but to reach for the neck and whatever is around it and pull it off. Any other movements are not going to be as forceful as you'd imagine. This is a natural reaction for good reason - it takes very little time to lose consciousness whilst being strangled, so you don't have long to remove the offending item.

According to forensicmed, syncope from strangulation can occur is as little as 7 seconds, the average being around 10-15 seconds. During the time of strangulation the muscles and brain will be increasingly starved of oxygen of course, meaning you will not be able to use a great deal of force to fight back, as you simply will not be able to keep exerting the same force, and with the lack of oxygen to the brain, you will not have time to think about much bar any natural reaction, involving trying to writeh out of the hold and prise the hands or ligature away.

As far as kicking goes, this could be fairly minimal and it would be much more likely to simply see the legs buckle underneath the victim as they become hypoxic. Given her poor respiratory health I doubt it would have taken long for her to pass out from being strangled. Of course the victim is only going to kick at something they can see. If the victim is dropped to the knees to be strangled kicking becomes much more difficult.

As for getting the knife to their throat without them screaming, this would be particularly difficult. When the knife neared the victim would move back, blood patterns would be seen where the victim had stood, and of course they would put up a struggle and scream.

Oh! But I did find one reason a tongue would swell and protrude without being strangled. And no matter what may have happened pre-mortem, may in fact be one of the reasons the tongue was swelling like that. Dry drowning.

Possible, likely causes being a hard blow to the solar plexus, or of course strong choking. Chapman suffered disease in her lungs, although the post-mortem tells us this had nothing to do with the cause of death, so pulmonary oedema was most likely not present.

This is a good point which I don't believe has been thought of before (or it may have), although I think the odds still point towards strangulation.

[protohistorian]

Tabram greatest wound density

The blue rectangle contains 11 wounds. Notice the liver is to the immediate left of this area and contains 5 additional wounds. Dave

[protohistorian]

fast and dirty Tabram math

The green rectangle is the torso as would be observed by an attacker. The area is 25,298 pixels square. The yellow square if the right lung and assuming the lungs were the same size, the left lung as well. This square is 1,581 pixels square. The light blue rectangle is the heart. This rectangle is 2552 pixels square. The red rectangle is the liver. This rectangle is 1710 pixels square. Given these values, one finds a lung is 6.24% of the torso, the heart is 10.08% of the torso, the liver is 6.75% of the torso. Given these values,as we can see in the last post, the focus of the Tabram attack was the left torso, and by a statistically wide margin. Dave

[protohistorian]

Coles

These are diagrams pertaining to Coles. The x ray shows the 5th cervical vertebra and the wound is at or below this level. I say this for two reasons. In his description Dr. Phillips refers to the severance of the carotid artery implying a wound below the point of bifurcation, the 4th cervical vertebra usually. The second is that he refers in the description to the trachea, which commences at the 5th cervical vertebra.

This is corroborated by Dr. Oxley who states that the larynx was cut twice. The larynx is a structure between C3 and C6 vertebrae.

The second diagram commences 1/3 of the way from the back of the neck and exiting at the front just to the left of the trachea as described by Dr. Phillips.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carotid_artery

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertebrate_trachea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larynx

A very special shout out to Trevor Bond who forwarded me the data to make these diagrams. Thank You! Dave

[Errata]

Ok. I think I'm working this choking thing backwards. Let me try another way.

There are two ways choking kills. Loss of blood to the brain, or loss of the intake of oxygen. Or a combination of both. I have been assuming the loss of oxygen, because the bruising and the petechia normally associated with carotid pressure wasn't mentioned. I'm pretty sure this was known back then, but it may not have, or may not have been widely known. Or it just wasn't in the report. I'm tossing this assumption.

There are seven ways of dying of asphyxiation (that I know of). They are suffocation, choking (like on a piece of chicken), manual strangulation, hanging, ligature, traumatic asphyxia (like a crush injury), and the intriguing and new to me positional asphyxia.

Suffocation seems unlikely. On an adult, without plastic, it tends to break the nose. It certainly causes people to fight like the dickens.

Choking is out. Unless he scared them so badly they all inhaled a peanut or something.

Manual strangulation is a maybe.

Hanging is also out. Outside of an autoerotic setup, you really do need a height to achieve this. Not a great height, but at least some of the crime scenes didn't have the necessary geography for a hanging.

Ligature seems unlikely, but I'm leaving it on the table.

Traumatic asphyxia is also unlikely, but possible so I'll leave it.

Positional Asphyxia: now this really makes me think. I have no idea how likely it is, but it's an intriguing notion, and possible. For those like me who don't know what this is, it is a forced or accidental posture that severely impairs breathing. For example, drunk people can and do choke to death when they pass out with their head tilted backward off the side of a couch or bed.

Oh! There is one more way. Drowning. Conventional drowning is out, but I think dry drowning bears a look.

So there's manual strangulation, ligature strangulation, traumatic asphyxia, positional asphyxia, and dry drowning. I think that the best way for me to go on this is to investigate these. Which I would totally do on my own, barring two difficulties. 1: My autopsy resources are pretty much exactly whats on the victims pages in these forums, and you all seem to have better ones. 2: Even modern medical texts journals and sites seem to disagree on the mechanics of asphyxiation. Blackout takes anywhere from a few second to a few minutes. The force required to break a hyoid bone is anything from a light punch to a baseball bat to the throat. Facial congestion in one book is "minimal" in another "profound". I may need help frankly. I don't want to hijack the thread or anything, so I just hope that if I ask a few questions, you won't take it amiss. And if anyone wants to help, it would surely be appreciated.

[protohistorian]

Tabram question

If the spleen is behind the stomach anatomically,for there to exist spleen stabs, does that mean stab entry on the side of the torso to avoid the stomach? Dave

[protohistorian]

Tabram spleen

I ask this because the Killeen description,"The wounds generally might have been inflicted by a knife, but such an instrument could not have inflicted one of the wounds, which went through the chest-bone. His opinion was that one of the wounds was inflicted by some kind of dagger, and that all of them were caused during life..." seems to indicate that only one wound clearly pointed to a second weapon. If the stomach was penetrated and the spleen was then hit, would that not also indicate a longer weapon? Dave

[Fisherman]

Not really, as I understand it. The fatty layers on the stomach of a large person still will not be very thick, and when somebody lies down, there will be a compression of the body as the knife is used on it - the punching movement downwards ensures this. Therefore, the pen knife may have been able to puncture the underlying organs with a blade measuring only a couple of inches.

The best,
Fisherman

[protohistorian]

Thanks Fisherman! Dave