methodology of throat cutting

[lynn cates]

determined

Hello Robert. Well, "determined" in its non-technical usage connotes to my mind a "never say die" attitude. But in this context, my observation seems oxymoronic (heh-heh).

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates writes:

"I was merely picking up on what was stated at the inquest."

What was said there by Phillips, was said in relation to the knife found by Thomas Coram only, and Phillips worded it like this:

"...if my opinion as regards the position of the body is correct, the knife in question would become an improbable instrument as having caused the incision"

And Phillips opinion was, as we know, that the body had not been moved, thereby producing a seriously awkward task for anybody with a long-bladed knife who wanted to produce the kind of cut that Stride received. Meaning that she could have been cut with a shortish knife as she lay down, OR with a longish one as she was falling. Or with a shortish one as she was falling, for that matter. Either way, the only indicator of blade length lies in the perceived accessibility to Strides neck as she lay in the yard. And either way, we cannot use the information to rule Jack in or out even if he DID keep to just the one blade.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

inquest

Hello Fish. Actually, I was thinking about this remark from the inquest:

"The wound was inflicted by drawing the knife across the throat. A short knife, such as a shoemaker's well-ground knife, would do the same thing."

Make of this as much or as little as you will.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates writes:

"Actually, I was thinking about this remark from the inquest:

īThe wound was inflicted by drawing the knife across the throat. A short knife, such as a shoemaker's well-ground knife, would do the same thing.ī"

Okay, Lynn - but we need to ask ourselves "the same thing as what?". And in order to get an answer to that particular question, letīs add the sentence before yours from the inquest: "The wound was inflicted by drawing the knife across the throat. A short knife, such as a shoemaker's well-ground knife, would do the same thing."

The wound was inflicted by drawing the knife across the throat. Therefore, we have the exact same chance to guess the blade length as we have when we are confronted with slices of a Frankfurter hot dog - none whatsoever. The only thing Phillips presses here is that much as there is no limit to how long the blade may have been, the possibility remains that it may have been shorter that the wound it produced, since that blade was drawn along the neck. This, however, does not mean that there is anything at all in the wound that suggests a certain length of the blade, and the only thing that goes to make a suggestion of a shortish blade more viable IN PHILLIPSī WIEW, is Strides position visavi the wall. Nothing else.

This issue really needs some settling, since it often clouds the case in a totally unnecessary manner.

The best,
Fisherman

[lynn cates]

length

Hello Fish. I am not disagreeing with you here. They thought the knife short because a longer knife (like the Coram tool) might have "bumped' against the wall. Of course, that concern is likely sparked by where one takes Liz to be when cut.

But isn't it also possible that, at least in the back of his/their mind/s an account was made of the less deep wound? At first blush the length of knife should have little or nothing to do with depth of wound. On the other hand, the different geometry of the knife would give it a different feel, hence, perhaps, a different kind of cut.

Cheers.
LC

[mariab]

The “mythology“ of the knife used to kill Stride allegedly having been shorter than the one used on Nichols and Chapman is also related to the story that someone found a short, dull knife near the murder scene on the next day after the Berner Street murder. The “short, dull knife“ in question might have been discarded since it didn't work anymore, and most probably had nothing to do with the murder on Berner Street. There's an article in Examiner 1 (about “exonerating“ Michael Kidney) which discusses all this.
As for the accounts of “nearly severed head from body“, I would fully agree with Supe here and ascribe this to lurid reporting and nothing more significant.
With many greetings to all from Paris,

[Fisherman]

Lynn Cates asks:

"isn't it also possible that, at least in the back of his/their mind/s an account was made of the less deep wound? At first blush the length of knife should have little or nothing to do with depth of wound. On the other hand, the different geometry of the knife would give it a different feel, hence, perhaps, a different kind of cut."

THAT is entirely possible, of course, Lynn. It is also a good point, that needed to be made. As long as we steer clear of any suggestion that a long blade could not have caused the specific type of wound - for that it most certainly could! - it is quite possible that Phillips may have felt that the more shallow wound would have been in accordance with his notion that a shorter blade may have been used to facilitate for a cut in the position Stride was lying in. Alas, of course, this only holds true if Phillips was on the button - and as you know, I donīt think he was.

The best,
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Maria writes:

"The “mythology“ of the knife used to kill Stride allegedly having been shorter than the one used on Nichols and Chapman is also related to the story that someone found a short, dull knife near the murder scene on the next day after the Berner Street murder. The “short, dull knife“ in question might have been discarded since it didn't work anymore, and most probably had nothing to do with the murder on Berner Street."

That knife, Maria (found by Thomas Coram), had a blade that was 9-10 inches long. It was anything but short, Iīm afraid! That was the reason for Phillips ruling aginst it being the murder weapon.

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

That knife, Maria (found by Thomas Coram), had a blade that was 9-10 inches long. It was anything but short, Iīm afraid! That was the reason for Phillips ruling aginst it being the murder weapon.

Fisherman, by your own suggestion then, that knife can't be ruled out as the moment of throat-cutting cannot be pinpointed.

Cheers,

Mike

[Fisherman]

Mike writes:

"Fisherman, by your own suggestion then, that knife can't be ruled out as the moment of throat-cutting cannot be pinpointed."

When it comes to the question of blade length only, that is correct, Mike. It was, however, a knife that - though it had once been very sharp - was now blunt. And a blunt knife would not have produced the kind of cut Stride got, by all accounts. Therefore, the Coram blade is not very likely to have been the one that killed Stride.

The best,
Fisherman

[The Good Michael]

Fish,

How would they have known that the blade was once very sharp and then became blunt? I suspect that a portion of the blade had to have been sharp for that to be said. What does that mean? Maybe nothing, but could someone have blunted the blade intentionally yet have left enough of it unblunted for an expert to say that? Just food for thought, though I'm eating none of it.

Mike

[Fisherman]

It had been "recently blunted" was what Phillips said, and, just like you, I find it a strange thing to say. My own guess is that there were indeed portions of the edge that remained intact and sharp. Maybe the blunting had produced a surface displaying a more "fresh" metal structure? If you take a piece of metal with an oxidized surface and rub it against a hard surface, then the oxidation will rub off and a different coloration will appear. As time goes by, the rubbed surface will regain itīs oxidized coloration though, leaving a window of time where a "recent" rubbing may be perceived. Maybe that was what lay behind Phillipīs assessment.

The best,
Fisherman

[Rubyretro]

Just out of interest, when I was in the full of my 'Hutch the Killer Groom Theory' (not totally discarded, but revised now), I spent some time looking for
pictures of hooving knives, such as a groom would own at the time.

These were like swiss knives (but bigger), folding, but with two blades -a long sharp straight one, and a shorter curved one.

I don't know if this has any bearing on the matter but it's interesting if there is a difference in knife wounds, and also how you could walk away with a 'bloody' knife.

[lynn cates]

Phillips

Hello Fish. You force me to agree with you--or, better, your logical observation does.

As much as I respect and admire Dr. Phillips (indeed, I place him on a pedestal close to Abberline) I CANNOT accept his assessment of Liz's take down. If it were correct, the cachous would have been spilled. (Of course, it is quite tempting to adopt since it neatly accounts for the shoulder bruises.)

Nevertheless, I can see WHY he put his scenario forward. The alternative to his scenario seemed to be Liz cut standing bolt upright. And this must certainly be rejected on grounds of absent arterial spray. Of course, if Liz is being pulled by her scarf and rotating, all the problems are neatly solved.

But, if she was not cut whilst on the ground, there is not much reason to assess knife length--it could be long or short.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

That sums things up very nicely, Lynn!

The best,
Fisherman