Bucks Row

[Rubyretro]

As many of you will know, I have a theory that JtR was an anti-semitic thug,
who whilst indulging his own warped need to mutilate, wanted to stir up trouble for the Jewish community.Obviously, it is easy to make a link between Berner Street,Mitre Square and the GSG...but what of the other locations ?

This is a quote from a Jewish walking Tour :
.

Between 1880 and 1890 in front of Bucks Row and Winthrop Street, Sunday meetings were held where intellectuals of the day would address the impoverished inhabitants of the East End. One could see and here such splendid orators as William Morris - the great social reformer (1834-1896), George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950) exposing hypocrisy amongst the ruling class and promoting socialist ideals.

Durward St. was also the place Jack the Ripper's second victim was found on 22 August 1888. Because the prostitutes murdered were always mutilated with such surgical precision, it was suspected that it was somebody using surgical instruments. Suspicion fell on a poor Jewish Ritual Slaughterer (Shochet) and he was duly arrested. It needed the intervention of the Chief Rabbi to prove his innocence and gain his release. This caused an anti-Semitic outburst. In the East London Observer 15.8.1888 the following appeared:

"On Saturday in several quarters of East London the crowd who assembled in the streets began a very threatening attitude towards the Hebrew population. It was repeatedly asserted that no Englishman could have perpetrated such a horrible crime and must have been done by a Jew."

[/QUOTE]

If the location of Bucks row was chosen expressely for the reason of causing racial tension, then it certainly had the desired affect !

Does anyone know what happened after Hanbury Street ??

[Rubyretro]

ps -I forgot to mention that the murder in Bucks Row was on the same night as the big fire on the Docks, which someone (Trevor ?) recently linked to a spate of arson attacks against Jews.

Corey suggested that the profile of JtR as a narcissist would include cruelty towards animals and arson.

[lynn cates]

tension

Hello Ruby. Interesting theory. But had I wished to instigate racial tension, I would have perpetrated the murder further west. In fact, the Aldgate area, in and around the synagogue, would have been an ideal location if one wished to cause such a problem. Also, the western most reaches of the Tower Hamlets would have worked well--given the abundant Jewish population there at that time.

Your theory seems most strained when one reaches Miller's Court. Perhaps you could pull MJK from the list for a better fit?

Cheers.
LC

[tnb]

ps -I forgot to mention that the murder in Bucks Row was on the same night as the big fire on the Docks, which someone (Trevor ?) recently linked to a spate of arson attacks against Jews.

Corey suggested that the profile of JtR as a narcissist would include cruelty towards animals and arson.

Not me RR, although I planted the seed so to speak by mentioning the Princelet St Yiddish theatre fire in 1887, as investigated by a certain Mr Abberline. It was Rob House who raised the question of whether we could overtly link the arson attacks with the murders, ala the classic profile of arson attacks earlier in a serial killer's history. As it happened, I had been misled over some details of the Princelet St event and it may not have been a fire after all, rather a panic over a suspected one (thanks to Don Souden for putting me right on that one).

Certainly there was a massive anti-semitic feeling in the area at the time (even coming from established Jewish families on some occasions), but whether the murderer was following a distinct agenda along those lines or even influenced by such concerns to a certain extent, is hard to tell. It may well be nothing more than that with the nature of the area he was more than likely to kill in a street with Jewish connotations even if he was blindfolded. The crimes and everything about their reportage, the public reaction and even the investigation, as with any historical event, will have been more or less a product of the social conditions, prejudices etc of its time, even if unconsciously. Chris George is a fountain of knowledge on the problems faced by East End Jews at the time and should he pop by would do a much better job of illustrating that than me, although I am sure you have collected many of your own examples by now.

My personal feeling is that the majority of arson attacks, if deliberately anti-semitic, were pretty unsubtle and targetted directly at the disliked group-I cannot see that perpetrator turning to the extremely subtle and clever plan of killing non-Jews in Jewish-affiliated locations. That is not saying that your anti-semitic killer is necessarily incorrect, but that if so then I wouldn't have him down as the arsonist too (if indeed more than one of the fires were linked to any one person).

Then again, many may disagree...!

I happen to have come across the site you have taken your quote from before, and it is very informative on some lesser-known Jewish elements of the area which may well come in useful to your research, but on the crimes (which is not its focus, to be fair) I would be very careful to check pretty much everything, and so would not place too much importance in its chronology, for example. Much of the anti-semitic feeling in the press didn't actually gather pace to a dangerous extent until after Hanbury St and the 'Leather Apron' furore, although I am sure many individuals had their suspicions since day 1. Any site which declares that 'Because the prostitutes murdered were always mutilated with such surgical precision' (they weren't always mutilated, no one agreed on the surgical precision, and we don't even know for sure they were all prostitutes!!!) and also has Nicolls' murder date out by 9 days should be seen as 'handle with care'.

‘Our first business is to humanise our Jewish immigrants, and then to Anglicise them' - the words of one of the Rothschilds, at the time of the founding of the 'four percent dwellings company'. The Rothschilds were Jews themselves, but clearly felt themselves a class above!

Trevor.

[corey123]

Corey suggested that the profile of JtR as a narcissist would include cruelty towards animals and arson.

I suggested that could be a way he would have released his emotions before he found that murder worked better. That was part of the post-killer Jack the Ripper.

Although it is possible he continues with these cruelities.

Yours truly

[Rubyretro]

Your theory seems most strained when one reaches Miller's Court. Perhaps you could pull MJK from the list for a better fit?

Cheers.
LC[/QUOTE]

I certainly do pull MJK from the list for location.

I think that she was definitely killed by the same killer for the MO...but I would agree with most people that, besides the killer having more time and privacy for more extensive mutilations, there seems to be a more personal
attack on the face. Besides which, he seems to have known that she would be alone, and no one else would be coming in.

On the other hand, Hutch did try and throw the Police a Jewish Suspect in A Man.

As to why the killer didn't go to Aldgate etc..maybe this has to do with opportunism and practicalities...Hanbury, Bucks Row and Miller's Court are very near the Victoria Home. They might be lonlier locations -or maybe he wandered around trying to find the right isolated victim in the right spot.

Or maybe -as I believe is the case with Berner Street- he set off earlier with
other men, and waited until he was alone.

At any rate, I'm very interested to read your Posts, Lynn -because I think that my theory will dovetail with yours and (Trevors ? Tnb ?) work somewhere along the line.

[corey123]

Hello Rubyreto,

I think that she was definitely killed by the same killer for the MO...but I would agree with most people that, besides the killer having more time and privacy for more extensive mutilations, there seems to be a more personal
attack on the face.

Now the way I see it, the facial mutilation, in my opinion has nothing to do with anything personal, but has to do with the evolution of his fantasy. Hence the increase mutilation due to a slightly more elaborate fantasy.

Besides that, this is an intersting theory to entertain.

[lynn cates]

Berner

Hello Ruby. Thanks. I certainly think that the Berner st killing shares some attributes in common with your theory. However, the killer--in my book--may very well have been a Jewish anarchist himself. I hasten to add that this theory is not original with me.

Cheers.
LC

[Jane Coram]

Hi Rubytro,

I may well be wrong on this, but reading that information from the Jewish tour, I wonder if they may be talking about Berner Street and the IWEC here, rather than Buck's Row, because Morris and Shaw certainly spoke there. Perhaps someone else can confirm that they also gave talks around Buck's Row?

They seem to have got quite a few facts wrong there, which would certainly make me want to do more research on it, before I accepted the information at face value. Of course the anti-semitism mentioned is quite accurate, but it does seem to have got some of the facts garbled.

Hugs

Jane

xxxxx

[Rubyretro]

Hi Rubytro,

I

may well be wrong on this, but reading that information from the Jewish tour, I wonder if they may be talking about Berner Street and the IWEC here, rather than Buck's Row, because Morris and Shaw certainly spoke there. Perhaps someone else can confirm that they also gave talks around Buck's Row?

xxxxx

Hi Jane -I'll try and find the link to the tour.

They definitely mean't Bucks Row though -since they were describing Durward Street.

[Jane Coram]

Hi Rubytro.

It could well be that they had speakers there as well, as there were a lot of active Socialist groups in the area at the time. 22 Hanbury Street was used frequently by people like Annie Besant, so there could have been something at Buck's Row as well. I'm just a bit dubious at taking anything at face value if there isn't some substantial contemporary evidence to support it.

I'm sure that someone on here has something on it, it's just that I've never seen anything personally on my travels. I'd be interested to see more on it though.

That reminds me, I'd better dig out the reference I promised on the murder in Mitre Square in 1256!!!

Hugs

Janie

xxxx

[Rubyretro]

Here you are Jane :

https://www.ibiblio.org/yiddish/Places/.../london.htm

[tnb]

There was a socialist club frequented by a number of Jews in Thomas Street (now Fulbourne and Castlemaine Streets) close to Bucks Row, but that page seems to be referring to the Hebrew Boys Club in Brady Street, also very close but which didn't open until 1896. I have no idea about their speaker's programmes, unfortunately.

[Rubyretro]

[

QUOTE=tnb;145721]There was a socialist club frequented by a number of Jews in Thomas Street (now Fulbourne and Castlemaine Streets) close to Bucks Row, but that page seems to be referring to the Hebrew Boys Club in Brady Street, also very close but which didn't open until 1896. I have no idea about their speaker's programmes, unfortunately.

[/QUOTE]

It gives the dates between 1880-1890, and it also talks about the Brady club.

I think that they're referring to a place where 10 years after Polly, Lenin and Stalin spoke.

[Rubyretro]

Sorry -Lenin apparently went to this club 1902-1903.