Why didn't Jack rape his victims?

[GregBaron]

He didn't care...

Hi all,

My personal opinion is that Jack (if a serialist) didn't care if his victims were maternal, paternal or fraternal. What he cared about was that they were easy prey. The same reason prostitutes remain the primary victims of deranged killers today.

He probably did want female victims as the focus of his wrath seemed to be in the genital region but for all we know he may have targeted men if they were as easy a prey. After all a kidney's a kidney...


Greg

[Jimi]

My Apologies.......

Hi All
First,my apologies for not answering earlier.Sorry about that but busy,don't you know.
And my apologies to you,Lynn, if i seemed out of order,there are some on these boards who like to lead you by the nose to say something controversial.
I suppose i should backtrack on the maternal staement,mainly because what i see as maternal and what you construe as matenal could be exact opposites. I could just as easily have left that grouping as just prostitutes, however i do find it interesting that you seem to zone in on the maternal part of that grouping. Don't you think they could be grouped as maternal.
By they i mean Tabram,Chapman,Eddowes and Nichols. I don't perceive Kelly as maternal, just as a victim of opportunity. I can't prove it, but i would take some convincing of Stride being a Ripper victim.
I wouldn't say i agree with the other 50+% of Kellys death,I just don't know of enough to disagree comprehensively.

Hi Belinda
I thought i just said that.

Hi Greg
And of course a uterus is a uterus.
On a Man?
Keep Well
Jimi

[lynn cates]

clarifying

Hello Jimi. Thanks. No need to apologise. You did not seem out of order and you are quite correct that it frequently happens that there are those who would goad one to get a result. I can honestly say the only result I seek is "case closed."

I think I see what you mean by maternal. You mean someone who behaves a certain way--irrespective of age.

Thanks again for clarifying.

Cheers.
LC

[GregBaron]

Can't know his wants...

And of course a uterus is a uterus.

And yes, Jimi ,this is a good point and it begs the question of just whcih organs was the miscreant after? Was he just groveling mindlessly for anything he could find or did he know where certain organs were and was he collecting a smorgasbord of specimens? Was he after uterus, kidney, heart etc?

Again, as one poster rather stridently reminded me some time past, we don't know his motivation.

I don't truly believe he had any interest in men I was just trying to make the point of how little we know of his desires.

He himself may have know little as he was under the spell of a deep subconscious compulsion of which he understood little. Just a thought.

With that said, I agree with those who say he had little interest in rape but only murder, mutilation and perhaps symbolic and visceral destruction of the female for which he had such hatred and fear..............


Greg

[belinda]

I personally think they were all in the wrong place at the wrong time. If it hadn't been them it would have been someone else. I don't think personality mattered to him. They were objects for him to unleash his fury on.

[Jimi]

Interesting

Hi All
Hi Jimi
Hi Greg
All good ,interesting points. His motivation. For me the simple answer is that Jack wanted to kill and not get caught, personally I don't think Jack went out initially to organ harvest, he only gained that compulsion after his first kill.
" I'll have that while i'm here" sort of thing, "i can use that later on"
Still on motivation, perhaps if we could discover Jacks stressor, the initial devastating event that drove him over the edge, that may give us some insight into his motivation. Actually I think compulsion is a better word.
I would tend to disagree that Jack didn't know what he was doing, subconciously or not. He knew what he was doing was wrong,he didn't want to get caught.
I do believe that there is the possibility that Jack Staked out the prostitutes places of business, which shows Jack had forethought.
The thing is was Jacks original crime commited with rape in mind,but as you say we know little of Jacks desires, but isn't part of the game to work that out?
You mention Jacks hatred and fear, but does it have to be that?
A sort of " die, you bitch,die, Why did you have to die, you bitch" isn't that more about loss and grief?
Just a thought.
Keep Well
Jimi

[GregBaron]

Insane Act...

Hi Jimi et al,

I would tend to disagree that Jack didn't know what he was doing, subconciously or not. He knew what he was doing was wrong,he didn't want to get caught.

Not knowing what one is doing and having hidden subconscious urges are two different things. He certainly could have planned but may himself not have completely understood his dark compulsion.

but isn't part of the game to work that out?

Yes Jimi that can be part of the parlor game and is quite fine. Just make sure you mention that you are speculating or else the minimalists will attack with impunity.

A sort of " die, you bitch,die, Why did you have to die, you bitch" isn't that more about loss and grief?

I struggle to believe it's about loss and grief as he tries to remove her head from her body. Again it's hard to understand the motivation for an insane act but speculating hatred is involved isn't a huge stretch.

I doubt rape was ever part of his plan.



Greg

[Jimi]

Urges

Hi All
Hi Greg
Might I just say i am only a layman trying to understand the mind of a murderer.
If Jack had hidden subconcious urges till his first murder, I can understand, but after his fist kill they are no longer part of his subconcious nor hidden, because he obviously enjoyed it and wanted to kill again. He hunted for victims, surely, planning to kill and mutilate them. As to him understanding his compulsion,well, would he have wanted to? He enjoyed killing.
My opinion only,of course.
As to loss and grief not playing a part,I agree its likely that hatred was part of Jacks motivation, but where did that hatred come from?
I can remember seeing my younger brother hit by a car and flying 80 feet through the air. I,completely irrationly, hated every car driver that passed by while waiting for an ambulance and would willingly have attacked them.
I was 10 years old at the time. I wonder what sort of rage/hatred that could have manifested itself into if my brother hadn't lived.
Loss and grief and hatred are all very powerful emotions. Surely you must agree it's only a short step from one to the other in a troubled mind.
Keep Well
Jimi

[Flagg]

The act of murder was sex to him. The hunt was the foreplay.

[John Wheat]

There is of course the theory that Jack had anal sex with Mary Jane Kelly and its not 100% sure that Jack didn't have sex with any of the other victims.

[Errata]

He may very well have had sex with his victims post mortem. Just not through any of the conventional orifices, if it's possible to put it delicately. I highly doubt doctors would look for seminal fluid in the wounds.

[Archaic]

The act of murder was sex to him. The hunt was the foreplay.

Hi Flagg. You put that very well.

Jack did rape his victims- but on the streets of Whitechapel he raped them with his knife and with his hands. His idea of "sex" wasn't our idea of sex... his idea of sex was experiencing the feeling of "total control" during he grotesque, deadly, and obscene violation of a woman.

That was how he derived sexual excitement and sexual pleasure, fantasizing about and then doing things that would utterly horrify and revolt a normal person.

Once he was safely away from the crime scene, God only knows what he did with the body parts that he took as trophies.

Errata is correct, sexual psychopaths have been known to penetrate the very wounds of their victims. Basically they penetrate the victim with a knife, then with a physical organ... in other words, they create their own "sexual" orifice.

It's hard to even think about, but grasping these concepts and being aware of the range of deviant sexual behaviors gives one valuable insight into the warped minds of sexual serial killers.

We don't know what additional deviant sexual acts Jack performed upon the corpse of Mary Kelly, when he had the luxury of time and privacy... but you can be sure that taking her body apart with a knife was for him a very pleasurable "sexual" act.

And you can be sure that Jack the Ripper continued to violate his victims- both those he had slaughtered and those he wished to become his future victims- in his sick fantasies.

It's nauseating, but it's true.

Best regards,
Archaic

[John Wheat]

Archaic you make some good points. Jack possibly penetrated the victims wounds or masturbated at the crime scenes.

[Archaic]

Archaic you make some good points. Jack possibly penetrated the victims wounds or masturbated at the crime scenes.

Thanks John.

My feeling about that issue is that- with the possible exception of Mary Kelly's murder- the Ripper waited until he was safely away from the crime scene to engage in activities like masturbation. I think while at the crime scene he used his hands and his knife as "surrogate" sexual organs.

Of course, I can't prove it, but from my knowledge of Psychology I think that he was the kind of killer who wanted to be in complete control of a situation and of the victim, and he wanted to mutilate, violate, degrade and sexually expose his victim to the public view.

I don't think he would have risked being sexually exposed himself by being "caught with his pants down", as the saying goes. He didn't want to be the "exposed" or "vulnerable" one. He got his jollies through mutilating his victims with a knife in the public streets and taking bloody body parts as trophies, and while indulging in that high-risk behavior he had to be ready at any second to make his escape. I believe he waited until he was in a safe place with total privacy before engaging in any sexual behaviors that might have made him feel vulnerable. Even the delay necessitated in that would have affected him sexually and heightened his pleasure.

Only in Mary Kelly's room did he have the "luxury" of more time and a little privacy, so he probably indulged in a wider range of behaviors. For example, it's my opinion that he probably stripped naked before dissecting Mary's corpse. It would have kept the blood off his clothes and given him enhanced sexual pleasure.

I've often wondered if there was ever a case where the Ripper abducted a victim and had them at his mercy in some private location where there was little chance of being interrupted... if so, I think he would have experimented with all kinds of deviant sexual behaviors, including sadistic torture.

Personally I think there's a good case to be made for Jack having been responsible for at least one or two of the Torso killings. That killer did have the luxury of more time and greater privacy, as is attested to by the fact that the victims were dismembered and then disposed of piece-meal.

(Ugh...I typed that word "piece-meal" off the type of my head, and re-reading it just made me feel queasy. This is such a horrible subject! I sincerely strive to understand the psychology of the murders, but thinking about them often nauseates me.)

That's enough for now.

Best regards,
Archaic

[lynn cates]

time

Hello John.

"Jack possibly penetrated the victims wounds or masturbated at the crime scenes."

Do you really think he had time for this? The time window was small in Mitre sq.

Cheers.
LC