Did the Ripper rip through clothing?

[Uncle Jack]

I know this seems such a simple thing not to know, but was watching the Patsy/Sickert documentry last night and saw her do a demonstration of the Ripper cutting by slashing at a huge slab of raw meat. When she did it she piled it with layers of clothing so it got me thinking whether the Ripper cut through the clothing or actually lifted it up all the way like he did Mary Ann Nichols?

[doris]

My understanding is, and don't expect me to be correct please as I have only read 30 JTR books so I don't really know that much about JTR's doings, is that saucy Jack used to simply move the garments away from the area of his 'operations'.

So, as far as I know, no he didn't 'rip' his way through the ladies garments.

doris

[Uncle Jack]

Cheers Doris!

[doris]

The pleasure was all mine

doris

[doris]

Oh dear.

I had forgotten, he did rip Elisabeth Stride's handkerchief which was wrapped around her neck a bit.

The bottom of the kandkerchief had cuts which matched the wounds in her neck.

If you want to know more I will look it up for you, but that is all I can remember.

doris

[Maggyann]

...and that damned apron, that got 'ripped'.............

[Uncle Jack]

Thanks everyone. What was mystifying me was whether he actually cut through the layers as shown by our good friend Patsy, who claimed he cut through the layers she (the victim) wore. Patricia insinuated that the Ripper ripped through the clothing to get to the abdomen. I was sure that wasn't the case but just thought I would ask anyway, out of interest. Thanks again for the replies

[Phil Carter]

Hello Adam,

I believe I am correct in saying that various tears and rips to the garments of Catharine Eddowes were clearly apparent.

best wishes

Phil

[Monty]

Adam,

Inspector Collards Inquest testimony

At five minutes before two o'clock on Sunday morning last I received information at Bishopsgate-street Police-station that a woman had been murdered in Mitre-square. Information was at once telegraphed to headquarters. I dispatched a constable to Dr. Gordon Brown, informing him, and proceeded myself to Mitre-square, arriving there about two or three minutes past two. I there found Dr. Sequeira, two or three police officers, and the deceased person lying in the south-west corner of the square, in the position described by Constable Watkins. The body was not touched until the arrival shortly afterwards of Dr. Brown. The medical gentlemen examined the body, and in my presence Sergeant Jones picked up from the foot way by the left side of the deceased three small black buttons, such as are generally used for boots, a small metal button, a common metal thimble, and a small penny mustard tin containing two pawn-tickets. They were handed to me. The doctors remained until the arrival of the ambulance, and saw the body placed in the conveyance. It was then taken to the mortuary, and stripped by Mr. Davis, the mortuary keeper, in presence of the two doctors and myself. I have a list of articles of clothing more or less stained with blood and cut.

Dr Frederick Gordon Brown stated that...

Dr. Frederick Gordon Brown was then called, and deposed: I am surgeon to the City of London Police. I was called shortly after two o'clock on Sunday morning, and reached the place of the murder about twenty minutes past two. My attention was directed to the body of the deceased. It was lying in the position described by Watkins, on its back, the head turned to the left shoulder, the arms by the side of the body, as if they had fallen there. Both palms were upwards, the fingers slightly bent. A thimble was lying near. The clothes were thrown up. The bonnet was at the back of the head. There was great disfigurement of the face. The throat was cut across. Below the cut was a neckerchief. The upper part of the dress had been torn open.

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Adam,

I believe I am correct in saying that various tears and rips to the garments of Catharine Eddowes were clearly apparent.

best wishes

Phil

Hello Adam,

From Eddowes Inquest..

Chintz skirt...jagged cut 6.1/2" long from waistband, left side of front..

Brown Linsey Dress Bodice...clean cut bottom of left side, 5" long from right to left.

Grey Stuff Petticoat, white waist band, cut 1.1/2" long, thereon in front...

Very Old Green Alpaca Skirt... Jagged cut 10.1/2" long in front of waistband downward

Very Old Ragged Blue Skirt...jagged cut 10.1/2" long, through waistband, downward...

White Calico Chemise..apparently torn thus in middle of front..

Mans White Vest...torn at back..

I piece of red gauze Silk, various cuts thereon found on neck.

These things above in addition to the torn apron.

Hope this helps.

best wishes

Phil

[kensei]

"The upper part of the dress had been torn open." Strikes me as having been done with the killer's hands, not his knife, and would be in keeping with buttons popping off.

[Monty]

Its a shame Patsy didnt read the witness testimonies before experimenting

Monty

[Uncle Jack]

Thanks Monty, Phil and Kensei. This has helped a lot. Cheers!

[curious]

Hello Adam,

From Eddowes Inquest..

Chintz skirt...jagged cut 6.1/2" long from waistband, left side of front..

Brown Linsey Dress Bodice...clean cut bottom of left side, 5" long from right to left.

Grey Stuff Petticoat, white waist band, cut 1.1/2" long, thereon in front...

Very Old Green Alpaca Skirt... Jagged cut 10.1/2" long in front of waistband downward

Very Old Ragged Blue Skirt...jagged cut 10.1/2" long, through waistband, downward...

White Calico Chemise..apparently torn thus in middle of front..

Mans White Vest...torn at back..

I piece of red gauze Silk, various cuts thereon found on neck.

These things above in addition to the torn apron.

Hope this helps.

best wishes

Phil

So, other than Stride's neck kerchief, only Eddowes clothing was cut?

Any ideas why?

Curious

[Phil Carter]

Hello curious,

I only referred to Eddowes in this posting as you saw. However I personally feel that imho, it is important to point out that the "report" by Dr. Bond which mysteriously turned up in 1987,apparently hand-written, unsigned and unstamped, makes no mention of any item of clothing. The 2nd part of this report refers to the post mortem only, but starts with the position of the body on the bed. (RE Sourcebook, page 383-384.)
I would also welcome the original papers to be viewed on Casebook so that this report can be compared for any possible handwriting similarities of Dr. Bond. Until then, because of the very obvious timing of this discovery, along with other unproven pieces, I regard this document as dubious, as its provenance and authenticity, to my knowledge, is not yet proven.

best wishes

Phil