Did Jack "Pose" his victims.

[smezenen]

I have had many wonderful debates on the topic of whether Jack posed the bodies of his victims. these discussions have always been on threads dedicated to other topics so I am starting this thread to continue the discussion. All comments are welcome.

To start the discussion I think we must begin with a distinction between posing and positioning. Below is how I see the distinction.

Posing is to put the body into a position that would increase the horror effect or send a message. In other words to put the body in a purposely unnatural position. An example of posing would be to nail the corpse to a wall in the form of a cross or place it in a seated position at a dinner table.

Positioning is how the killer moves the body or body parts in order to accomplish his goal. In other word putting the body or parts of the body in a naturally incidental position. An example may be, the intestines placed beside the body or tossed over a shoulder in order to get them out of the way.

So the questions go out:
1-Are the above definitions of positioning -Vs- posing correct in your view?

2-Do you thing Jack posed bodies or is the way the bodies are found just a result of natural positioning?

I don’t know how / don’t have the ability to make this thread a poll. Maybe there is someone more knowledgeable / capable than I that could / would start a poll.

[kensei]

I agree with your definitions, and I think the only example of posing JTR did would have been to stick Mary Kelly's left hand into her abdominal cavity, though I can't guess what specific meaning it had for him. Other than that, I wouldn't say any of the other bodies appear to have been posed in any way.

[smezenen]

kensei,
looking at the photo of Mary kelly, does it look like the hand is inside the abdominal cavity? Or is it just over the cavity?

My opinion is over, thus it may have just fallen into this position. I used to believe it was inside until I saw the colorized photo. http://forum.casebook.org/showpost.p...3&postcount=59

[kensei]

Smezenen, though the colorized photo is interesting, I think it obviously makes things less clear, not more. I was just reviewing Dr. Bond's notes describing the body and he doesn't say whether the hand was inside the cavity or not, but in the black and white picture it does look to me like at least the fingers are curled over the edge. Even if the hand just fell that way, it would have to have been out of the way while all the organ removal was going on so it still suggests that picking up Mary's left arm was one of the last things the Ripper did, and then positioned it as seen in the picture either deliberately or haphazardly.

[smezenen]

kensei,
very well put and I agree, the doctors description the black and white and the colorized version of the photo alone dont show conclusively how far into the cavity the fingers/hand are. mostly becouse of camera angle and paralax.
A close up of the body straight on from the foot of the bed would have been nice.

The question of posed Vs positioned in regards to placement of the arm in its finial position can only be answered if and when we can answer the question, which where done first the arm or the abdominal mutilations? Since we have no eye witness to the crime we will in all probablility never be able to answer that question.

[Bob Hinton]

In answer to your question

No.............

[smezenen]

No.............

Bob,
Thanks for joining in. I assume you are answering question 2 from my first post but which part is your no vote intended for? Did he pose the body or was it just natural body position?

[The Good Michael]

The body was moved efficiently in order for JTR to do his work. Any positioning is the result of necessity.

Mike

[Bob Hinton]

Nope

Bob,
Thanks for joining in. I assume you are answering question 2 from my first post but which part is your no vote intended for? Did he pose the body or was it just natural body position?

just answering the title of the thread 'Did Jack pose his victims'

[FrankO]

1-Are the above definitions of positioning -Vs- posing correct in your view?
2-Do you thing Jack posed bodies or is the way the bodies are found just a result of natural positioning?

1. Yes
2. No

Best,
Frank

[smezenen]

Thanks for your input Frank.

does your no answer to numer 2 mean you dont believe the bodies are posed or does it mean you dont believe they where positioned?

[smezenen]

I guess I need to clarify Question number 2. The answers I was trying to stimulate are POSED or POSITIONED as they pertain to the definitions provided.

question #2 rewritten
Given the definitions for POSING Vs POSITIONING which do you believe most pertains to the victims of Jack the Ripper?

[FrankO]

does your no answer to numer 2 mean you dont believe the bodies are posed or does it mean you dont believe they where positioned?

Sorry smezenen, I had already answered question no. 2 when I was not even halfway reading. So, my 'no' means I don't believe the Ripper posed his victims.

All the best,
Frank

[smezenen]

Sorry smezenen, I had already answered question no. 2 when I was not even halfway reading. So, my 'no' means I don't believe the Ripper posed his victims.

All the best,
Frank

Thanks Frank,
I think Bob did the same thing so i reworded the question in hopes to prevent it again.

[Jdombrowski89]

I have had many wonderful debates on the topic of whether Jack posed the bodies of his victims. these discussions have always been on threads dedicated to other topics so I am starting this thread to continue the discussion. All comments are welcome.

To start the discussion I think we must begin with a distinction between posing and positioning. Below is how I see the distinction.

Posing is to put the body into a position that would increase the horror effect or send a message. In other words to put the body in a purposely unnatural position. An example of posing would be to nail the corpse to a wall in the form of a cross or place it in a seated position at a dinner table.

Positioning is how the killer moves the body or body parts in order to accomplish his goal. In other word putting the body or parts of the body in a naturally incidental position. An example may be, the intestines placed beside the body or tossed over a shoulder in order to get them out of the way.

So the questions go out:
1-Are the above definitions of positioning -Vs- posing correct in your view?

2-Do you thing Jack posed bodies or is the way the bodies are found just a result of natural positioning?

I don’t know how / don’t have the ability to make this thread a poll. Maybe there is someone more knowledgeable / capable than I that could / would start a poll.

Interesting thread. I think it's quite possible that he did pose them. It's not unusual for serial killers to do this. Take Gary Leon Ridgway. After he murdered Carol Ann Christensen, she was positioned a certain way, and I believe that Ted Bundy also positioned some of the bodies of his victims in a manner (I may be wrong), not exactly like that of JTR, but along the same notion. The Ripper shares alot of unique traits for a serial killer in terms of "Modern Profiling" with a large fact being with the situation of Annie Chapman with the missing rings, I read somewhere on the old forums and someone had suggested that the killer took these as trophy items, which is seriously possible. But also I think that in some cases, the bodies were positioned in a way that it was easier for him to mutilate them, such as Eddowes whos legs were pretty much open. In her case I think it's mainly because he had easier access to her pubic region to perform post-mortem infliction.

Regards,
Justin