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Did JtR Wander Around For Hours Looking For Likely Victim

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  • Did JtR Wander Around For Hours Looking For Likely Victim

    From the thread "Kate's choice of 'Mary Ann Kelly'"

    Originally posted by DVV View Post
    Basically, yes, it's again about money. Maybe she tried to bring "home" the little money she had spent drinking in the afternoon.

    Amitiés,
    David
    so, what are we looking at here?

    Nichols and Chapman were wandering around broke and no place to lay their heads much later than Eddowes was, but all three had no money and no where to go.

    Was JtR out earlier Sept. 30 than he was with the other two? or did it take him longer to find a suitable victim on those other nights? Did he wander around 2 or 3 hours or more waiting for the right person?

    Wonder why?

    Of course, on Timings at Dutfields Yard-From The IWMA thread
    PerryMason makes the point that the IWMA meeting broke up earlier the night Stride and Eddowes were killed than it did most evenings.

    If he's right and someone at that meeting killed Elizabeth Stride and was the Ripper --- then he was sent on his way and the club was busy covering up for him to save their club, so JtR would have been free earlier.

    Now, does anyone know what nights the IWMA meetings were held? do meetings there match up with the other murders? Was JtR attending a meeting, then going to kill?

    Why were Nichols and Chapman killed so much later in the morning than Stride and Eddowes?

    curious

  • #2
    Hi Curious,

    sorry I haden't seen your thread and replied in in "Kate's..."

    Just to not that even with the "classic" chronology, the killer would have had time enough to reach Mitre Square convince Eddowes to follow him up to the corner. No big problem here, even if Stride is canonical.

    As to the different times of the murders, well, that could be simply a matter of chance. Random killings, different moments... It was always night or very early morning, at least.
    Chapman's murder occured just after Nichols'. Jack had to be cautious, for the whole area was on its gard this weekend, I imagine. And almost at dawn, he got the opportunity.
    Surely poor sick and exhausted Annie wasn't successful that night, and had to wander the streets later than most.

    Amitiés,
    David

    Comment


    • #3
      traditional answer

      Hello Curious.

      "Why were Nichols and Chapman killed so much later in the morning than Stride and Eddowes?"

      I think the traditional answer here would be that Jack changed his times to elude the increased presence of law enforcement officials on the streets.

      And don't forget the cliche, "Jack wasn't a robot, was he?"

      The best.
      LC

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by DVV View Post
        Hi Curious,

        sorry I haden't seen your thread and replied in in "Kate's..."

        Just to not that even with the "classic" chronology, the killer would have had time enough to reach Mitre Square convince Eddowes to follow him up to the corner. No big problem here, even if Stride is canonical.

        As to the different times of the murders, well, that could be simply a matter of chance. Random killings, different moments... It was always night or very early morning, at least.
        Chapman's murder occured just after Nichols'. Jack had to be cautious, for the whole area was on its gard this weekend, I imagine. And almost at dawn, he got the opportunity.
        Surely poor sick and exhausted Annie wasn't successful that night, and had to wander the streets later than most.

        Amitiés,
        David
        Hi, David,

        Thanks,

        I'm with you on the timing with Stride and Eddowes.

        And I agree about Annie not being able to make her doss.

        But why was Jack himself out at such different times?

        Was he busy in the midnight to 2-ish time? doing what?

        Were there activities that ended just prior to the killings that could be checked out for possible locations for JtR to have spent his evenings?

        Such as the Working Man's Club where Stride was killed.

        Is there anyway to know what else was going on in the immediate areas of the murders?

        curious

        Comment


        • #5
          Yes Lynn,

          and he was certainly ready from midnight to dawn.
          Some nights, who knows, he may have searched in vain.
          I supposed wandering the streets was also part of the ritual, another source of adrenaline.
          There's a strange mixture of caution and temerity in him, well expressed by Dr Bond: "great coolness and daring".

          Amitiés,
          David

          edit: just saw your post. I hope this one answers it a little.

          Comment


          • #6
            pub

            Hello Curious.

            "Is there any way to know what else was going on in the immediate areas of the murders?"

            It has been argued by the traditionalists that he was likely in a pub, drinking and screwing up his courage.

            The best.
            LC

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
              Hello Curious.

              "Why were Nichols and Chapman killed so much later in the morning than Stride and Eddowes?"

              I think the traditional answer here would be that Jack changed his times to elude the increased presence of law enforcement officials on the streets.

              And don't forget the cliche, "Jack wasn't a robot, was he?"

              The best.
              LC
              Hi, Lynn,

              No, he wasn't a robot. But how smart he was is questionable . . .

              was he out and about for hours? biding his time, waiting.

              Poor Annie, sick and tired, apparently wandered for hours.

              did Jack too?

              Or did he awaken in the middle of the night with a killing fever and go trolling?

              OR was he perhaps out and involved in an activity and spotted a likely victim by sheer randomness?

              I'm guessing since the murders occurred on the weekends, there was a lot going on? what kinds of things?

              Where would I find that?

              curious

              Comment


              • #8
                romantic

                Hello DVV.

                "Some nights, who knows, he may have searched in vain.
                I supposed wandering the streets was also part of the ritual, another source of adrenaline.
                There's a strange mixture of caution and temerity in him, well expressed by Dr Bond: "great coolness and daring"."

                I must say, I love this "romantic" view of Jack and sincerely hope that you are right.

                ("But I 'ave me doubts.")

                The best.
                LC

                Comment


                • #9
                  a drunk Jack?

                  Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                  Hello Curious.

                  "Is there any way to know what else was going on in the immediate areas of the murders?"

                  It has been argued by the traditionalists that he was likely in a pub, drinking and screwing up his courage.

                  The best.
                  LC
                  Hi, Lynn,

                  If JtR had been drinking for hours, would he have been steady enough to plot out his actions?

                  1) finding a victim -- at this moment, I'm seeing this as pure chance.

                  2) getting the victim to a secluded place?

                  3) subduing them, then slicing their throats so strongly and deeply?

                  could someone drinking for hours accomplish this? (of course Nichols was quite drunk herself. A drunk grabbing a drunk. Annie was sick. Perhaps it didn't take much to overpower her.)

                  However, if he had been busy with an "activity" or meeting that had him out at that time of night, likely he'd be more sober and steady.

                  Plus, the few women remaining out and about would likely be more desperate.

                  curious

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    errata

                    Hello Curious.

                    "No, he wasn't a robot."

                    Good. You hate this silly cliche too.

                    "was he out and about for hours? biding his time, waiting[?]"

                    Possibly. Of course, this already presupposes the traditional ripper with all the trappings. I am ready to give up that chimera.

                    "Poor Annie, sick and tired, apparently wandered for hours."

                    True, IF she was killed at 5:30. Some think she died an hour or more before that time.

                    "Or did he awaken in the middle of the night with a killing fever and go trolling?"

                    This view of Jack is simply delicious! I would be delighted if it were true. Imagine, a man with a Jekyll/Hyde problem trying desperately to stop his career but he is compelled by forces beyond his control.

                    "I'm guessing since the murders occurred on the weekends, there was a lot going on? what kinds of things?"

                    Notice that, the traditionalists have gerrymandered "weekend" to include Thursdays through Mondays, as well as bank holidays. With such a broad definition, I would be astonished if the killings took place any other time. What else is left?

                    The best.
                    LC

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by lynn cates View Post
                      Hello DVV.

                      "Some nights, who knows, he may have searched in vain.
                      I supposed wandering the streets was also part of the ritual, another source of adrenaline.
                      There's a strange mixture of caution and temerity in him, well expressed by Dr Bond: "great coolness and daring"."

                      I must say, I love this "romantic" view of Jack and sincerely hope that you are right.

                      ("But I 'ave me doubts.")

                      The best.
                      LC
                      Lynn,

                      I don't understand what's romantic?

                      Thanks,

                      Curious

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        questioning the view

                        Hello Curious.

                        "If JtR had been drinking for hours, would he have been steady enough to plot out his actions?

                        1) finding a victim -- at this moment, I'm seeing this as pure chance.

                        2) getting the victim to a secluded place?

                        3) subduing them, then slicing their throats so strongly and deeply?

                        could someone drinking for hours accomplish this?"

                        Shhh. You're not supposed to ask questions like that. Socrates asked analogous questions about traditional views and he paid a heavy price. (snicker!)

                        The best.
                        LC

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Lynn,

                          and thanks, for it's not often that I'm called romantic...though I may be...
                          But what is romantic?
                          The idea of Jack wandering the streets?
                          Stride's canonical status?
                          The fact that there was no murder in October, and the indoors final chapter, tell me about Jack-the-cautious, though, as always and as has been recently pointed out, "Miller's Court could also be a trap."

                          I grant you that my clumsy English may often sound strange...!

                          Amitiés,
                          David

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Curious,

                            about a drunk Jack, just keep in mind that many serial killers work under the effect of alcohol and drugs.

                            Amitiés,
                            David

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              romance

                              Hello Curious and DVV.

                              "I don't understand what's romantic?"

                              This refers to the product of Sir MM's dictum and many years of ripperology.

                              It includes:

                              1. A single Jack with 5 canonical victims.

                              2. Blood lust, or, in some versions, revenge.

                              3. Fog.

                              4. A top hat and cape.

                              5. A Gladstone bag filled with surgical instruments.

                              6. Big Ben striking in the background along with appropriate music from a double bassoon and/or bass viol.

                              Ah! This really takes me back!

                              The best.
                              LC

                              Comment

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