Was JTR a member of the Whitechapel Vigilance Committee?

[JTRSickert]

Hello, I just want to point out that, since many modern-day credible Ripperologists sort of point to the Unknown Local Man as being the Ripper, the question I have is: is it possible that this unknown local man could have been a member of Lusk's Whitechapel committee? When you think about it, it isn't that far-fetched. What better way to cast suspicion off of yourself than by joining a search committee and looking "for yourself." In the Martin Scorsese film "The Departed," Matt Damon's character is charged with finding a mob mole in the State Police...when, in fact, he is the mole himself. As a result, no one suspects Damon's character of being the perpetrator. So, for the killer to join forces with those that are hunting for him would be an effective method of avoiding suspicion. Does anyone else think this is plausible?

[perrymason]

Hello, I just want to point out that, since many modern-day credible Ripperologists sort of point to the Unknown Local Man as being the Ripper, the question I have is: is it possible that this unknown local man could have been a member of Lusk's Whitechapel committee? When you think about it, it isn't that far-fetched. What better way to cast suspicion off of yourself than by joining a search committee and looking "for yourself." In the Martin Scorsese film "The Departed," Matt Damon's character is charged with finding a mob mole in the State Police...when, in fact, he is the mole himself. As a result, no one suspects Damon's character of being the perpetrator. So, for the killer to join forces with those that are hunting for him would be an effective method of avoiding suspicion. Does anyone else think this is plausible?

Its an interesting question to look at JTR and it would allow access to some information about street patrols which would have been a great advantage for him.

The only opinion I can offer on it is that I believe that its possible Lusk recognized the handwriting on the kidney section package and perhaps suspected an author, but he was feeling unsafe already due to some messages that were sent to him before From Hell....a feeling that prompted him to seek out the police...and thats why he didnt turn it in to the police immediately. The first people he shows it to are Committee members, the 2nd day after he had received it. I think he feared for his safety...it may be that he was too scared to tell the police who he suspected. Maybe he might know of him through the Committee.

I would think though that if Jack was in that group then he would have to have had evenings when he was free to do so and it would be noticeable if someone was always off on the night of a murder...everyone likely looked sideways at each other during that time.

All the best

[fanoofez]

This actually features in the 1988 TV movie with Michael Caine. After coming up against Lusk, Abberline tells Godley to put an undercover man into the Vigilance Committee telling him that if he was the murderer, he'd go out every night looking for himself!

[Monty]

The patrols were only informed of their 'beats' just prior to going out. Therefore they were ignorant of where they were going until minutes before they left to patrol.

Monty

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi JTR,

My primary suspect is Charles Le Grand, who in fact was employed by the WVC to head up their patrols. I have a pretty neat pile of circumstancial evidence against Le Grand (particularly as regards the Stride murder) and Mike Covell recently discovered that he was indeed investigated by Scotland Yard, who considered him a serious suspect.

I also suspect, for different reasons, that certain members of the WVC concocted the 'From Hell' letter to generate press and therefore more monies coming in to them from the public.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

................ The first people he shows it to are Committee members, the 2nd day after he had received it. I think he feared for his safety...it may be that he was too scared to tell the police who he suspected. Maybe he might know of him through the Committee.

Hello all, Mike,

IF, and I say if with a great doubt, this person was on the VC, it may well explain the lull during October of so called ripper murders. The double murder stepped up the pressure on trying to flush out JTR. If this "JTR" has any sense,and the lull may suggest it... laying low for a while would indicate that he had some sort of control over his madness. Also, being privvy to the goings on of the VC, who are no doubt also in constant contact with the police I'd imagine, could explain much.

However, At this point, one would then have to look into the attendance of every VC member on every day of every attack after the VC was formed.
(Boy, wouldn't it narrow down the search though!!)

As far as I know, and perhaps Monty may be able to correct me or confirm this, there isn't any sort of attendance record for the VC. So their whereabouts is unknown on any given date.

best wishes

Phil

[Phil Carter]

Hi JTR,

My primary suspect is Charles Le Grand, who in fact was employed by the WVC to head up their patrols. I have a pretty neat pile of circumstancial evidence against Le Grand (particularly as regards the Stride murder) and Mike Covell recently discovered that he was indeed investigated by Scotland Yard, who considered him a serious suspect.

I also suspect, for different reasons, that certain members of the WVC concocted the 'From Hell' letter to generate press and therefore more monies coming in to them from the public.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

Hello Tom,
(My emphasis of your quote)

At least I'm not the only one to think that there is a set up going on through all of this! Whether it is with this theory in mind, I don't know, but like I have been saying for many, many years, there are too many things in the JTR /Whitechapel murders that don't make sense.
All power to you if you can get nearer the truth.

best wishes

Phil

[Tom_Wescott]

I accidentally posted this on another thread a minute ago, so please pardon the confusion..

Hi Phil,

My suspicions regarding the 'From Hell' letter and the WVC have nothing to do with my suspicions of Le Grand as a murderer. However, when I discovered that the WVC had employed a pimp and career criminal as their main dog, it forced me to reconsider their motives. In brief, my reasons for suspecting them are as follows:

1) They received the package, which generated a lot of press for them. Therefore, it's only right to consider them first as having concocted the hoax.

2) If you went to the trouble of procuring a kidney and writing the letter, would you have sent it to a private citizen?

3) Just before the receipt of the package, the WVC had made the press rounds appealing to the public for money. The contributions had been much smaller than anticipated.

4) Before taking the package to the police, they stopped at the Evening News, who wrote up a big, sensational piece. This is remarkable if you ask me. And the Evening News happened to be the paper that employed Le Grand and broke the Packer story.

None of this proves complicity on the part of the WVC, but it's a very curious chain of events.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Phil Carter]

Hello Tom,

Thanks...reply posted on other thread...

best wishes

Phil

[JTRSickert]

I accidentally posted this on another thread a minute ago, so please pardon the confusion..

Hi Phil,

My suspicions regarding the 'From Hell' letter and the WVC have nothing to do with my suspicions of Le Grand as a murderer. However, when I discovered that the WVC had employed a pimp and career criminal as their main dog, it forced me to reconsider their motives. In brief, my reasons for suspecting them are as follows:

1) They received the package, which generated a lot of press for them. Therefore, it's only right to consider them first as having concocted the hoax.

2) If you went to the trouble of procuring a kidney and writing the letter, would you have sent it to a private citizen?

3) Just before the receipt of the package, the WVC had made the press rounds appealing to the public for money. The contributions had been much smaller than anticipated.

4) Before taking the package to the police, they stopped at the Evening News, who wrote up a big, sensational piece. This is remarkable if you ask me. And the Evening News happened to be the paper that employed Le Grand and broke the Packer story.

None of this proves complicity on the part of the WVC, but it's a very curious chain of events.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

An interesting premise Tom.
I was wondering, on the nights of the murders, do we know if the WVC was engaged in any activity on those nights? Looking for suspicious characters or questioning witnesses? If not, it certainly doesn't rule one their lot out as being the Ripper.

[Tom_Wescott]

Hi JTR,

The WVC was formed in the wake of the Chapman murder, so they wouldn't have been on patrol during the Nichols and Chapman murders, but certainly were on the beat during the double event.
Some interesting connections between the WVC and the IWEC (Berner Street club) are as follows:

* The patrolmen for the WVC came mainly from the unemployed class (i.e. people who would patrol for very little money) and largedly from the socialist clubs. So not long before the murder of Stride, George Lusk would have appeared at the Berner Street club to appeal for volunteers.

* The only newspaper article in which Le Grand allowed his name to be mentioned was the Evening News Packer piece. Conversely, he did not allow it mentioned that he worked the the WVC. He is strangely silent regarding the Eddowes and Kelly murders.

* Albert Bachert, future head of the WVC made his first newspaper appearance in connection with the Whitechapel murders on the same day as Le Grand, with his Three Tuns story.

* In 1887, both Le Grand and Bachert mailed letters to the police at about the same time, complaining of the behavior of a police officer.

* Albert Bachert was a founding member of the IWEC and sued them in 1885. He later spoke out strongly against anarchism, stating that he spent time among the anarchists and found them evil. His Three Tuns story not only provided him with notoriety, it also gave him an alibi.

* The Berner Street club held major events in Hanbury Street, within spitting distance of number 29. They would also meet in Goulston Street, outside the Jewish baths, to go on political marches. Some of these marches would terminate in Mitre Square.

* The sign outside the IWEC read 'International Working Men's Educational Society'. IWMES looks just like 'JUWES' when written in cursif.

Just some neat stuff to ponder, some of which will be showing up in a couple of essays I'm working on for Rip and possibly my book later on.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[Monty]

Phil,

The patrols were organised and look their lead from the police allocation of their beats. However not all the men could make it night in night out which is why the patrols were allocated at the last minute. Men patrolled and some men were fixed a la fixed point duty of the police. Reports of curious incidents made and police were liaised with constantly.

These were not disorganised rabbles, so I suspect attendence registers were kept.

JTR,

Indications are that the St Judes VC, based out of Toynbee Hall, first started their patrols after the murder of Tabram. Their secretary Mr Thomas Hancock-Nunn stated in the Daily News of September 11th 1888 that 'A few days after the murder of a woman in George Yard, last month, a meeting of about 70 men, residing in the buildings in the immediate neighbourhood, was held, and after a discussion a committe of twelve was appointed to act as watchers, whose duties should be to observe the state of certain streets...'

Monty

[Phil Carter]

Hello Monty,

Thank you, it was as I first thought.

Attendance registers eh?..hmmm.. the next thing in that line may well be the living descendants of George Lusk.
Reports, if written by the VC, would be kept where? (If they indeed exist)
(County record office or otherwise applicable?)

best wishes

Phil

[Archaic]

re: TWMES & JUWES

* The sign outside the IWEC read 'International Working Men's Educational Society'. IWMES looks just like 'JUWES' when written in cursif.

Hi, Tom; you make some interesting points.

But I am confused by the statement quoted above. I wrote "IWMES" out in cursive and it looked nothing like "JUWES".

Besides, 3 of the 5 letters are different:
IWMES
JUWES

I can accept that an "I" can resemble a "J", but how does a "W" become a "U"? And where in the world can you put an "M" in the word "Juwes"?

If you have an example you've written out, can you post it? It's an interesting idea but I just can't visualize it.

Thanks & best regards, Archaic.

[Monty]

Phil,

Not sure if the registers would be archived. If they were then I feel the committee members, or their families had them. And if they did there would been deemed little use 20, 30, 50 years after the murders.

That said, and Tom may know this, I have read of some records surviving.

Monty