Evisceration - a side issue?

[Fisherman]

Natalie writes:

"The guys you talk of were much more "out of it" than the ripper appears to have been.The ripper took calculated risks and knew how to play at dodging the police."

Well, Natalie, Dahmer and Gein are not exactly on the same level - they are just connected by their fascination for dead meat.
But have a look at Dahmer! He was no more "out of it" than it allowed him to do away with seventeen men without being detected. He kept his deeds to his lair, and took a number of precautions not to get caught. He stripped the skulls of his victims from all meat - and then he painted them gray, to make them look like plastic, only to mention one thing! And don´t forget that he was able to convince two policemen who had a 14-year old Asian boy running round them in circles, naked and terrified, that there was nothing wrong, they boy was just hysterical, but he (Dahmer) would take care of him and calm him down. The police even took the couple back to Dahmers apartment!
Now, just how "out of it" is that?

Dahmer was well-spoken, respectably looking and very talented in swaying police and courtroom officials, as can be gleaned from his story. We actually KNOW that he took calculated risks - and pulled it off! - and we KNOW that he did not even have to dodge the police; he was clever enough to talk himself out of a very dangerous situation. No drooling there, I´d say!

The best, Natalie!
Fisherman

[Tom_Wescott]

It's a mistake to compare Dahmer to the Ripper. Dahmer sought privacy and committed his murders in the privacy and safety of his own sanctuary. His motives and needs would have been quite different from that of the Ripper.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[lynn cates]

what I read in the papers

Hello. I'm wondering if there is any evidence to support that "Jack" read the papers and followed his own exploits there?

I have seen some models of Jack--schizophrenic, hallucinatory--which would seem at loggerheads with the sophisticated taunting model of Jack, with which I grew up.

If Jack had really written "Dear Boss," then of course he did. He was playing cat and mouse with the police and was involved in an egotistical mind game. Roslyn D' Onston would be an excellent suspect here.

On the other hand, a Kosminski, being guided by voices (?), would likely not have followed the press reports about himself.

Cheers.
LC

[Fisherman]

Tom W writes:

"It's a mistake to compare Dahmer to the Ripper."

Let´s see about that when we know who and what the Ripper was, shall we? No two people are totally comparable, but there are details about Dahmer that may well offer very good insights into the driving forces within the Ripper.

"Dahmer sought privacy and committed his murders in the privacy and safety of his own sanctuary. His motives and needs would have been quite different from that of the Ripper."

The Ripper, Tom, may well have been denied the privacy that Dahmer enjoyed. Given the same circumstances, how can we tell what choice the Ripper would have made? Reasonably, the Kelly scene provided a better opportunity to go longer with her than with the other victims. I fail to see why he would have given up such circumstances freely to kill in the streets, if given a choice.

Finally, regarding your assertion that his motives and needs would have been "quite different" from those of Dahmer, I can only say that maybe they were - but the resulting evidence supports no such stance. Both men evidently needed a quick kill, giving access to a dead body. Both men, it would seem, felt compelled to annihilate those bodies. Both men opened up the abdomens of their victims. Both cut away bits and pieces. Both engaged in stripping the skeleton of it´s meat. I say the likeness is there - and to a very clear extent too. Beyond the evidence, we are left with guesswork.

What would be your own choice of comparison here, Tom? Any suggestions?

The best,
Fisherman

[FrankO]

1. It is assumed that Jack was mainly an eviscerator, with an interest of procuring organs.

Hi Fisherman,

Obviously, as this point is about motivation, anything anybody says is always speculative. Having said that, I don’t think he was mainly an eviscerator. As you suggested it yourself in some other post, maybe it ‘was nothing but a by-product of a wish to own, to control, to annihilate’ - to which I’d like to add ‘to explore the female body’. Whatever his wish or need, I’m quite sure that what he did was a by-product of this wish or need.

2. It is assumed that Jack´s motive for the killings was a sexual one.
In spite of this, fifty per cent of the organs he claimed were not related to human reproduction.

JtR did not just attack women; he attacked prostitutes who offered their bodies for sex. Furthermore, his first interest obviously lay under his victims’ skirts, where their private parts were, which is even accentuated by the fact that their legs were open. That he, in all cases (if we leave out Stride), at least mutilated the lower abdominal area, is another suggestion of a sexual motive.

Seen in this context, I wonder how important the count of taken away body parts is in deciding whether his motive was sexual or not. Furthermore, I’d say that part of the belly wall including the navel might be seen as a sexually interesting part of the female body too and that, even though he didn’t take it away with him, he still did cut out MJK’s womb, just as he attacked about all of her feminine parts: vagina, buttocks, thighs, breast, face.

3. It is assumed that he took the organs for gratification and the opportunity to remember the slayings.
But human organs rot away, and so they make for shortlived souvenirs.

My take is that, even though it worked for only a short time, the body parts he took mainly served as souvenirs, but to him may also have represented part of his power over his victims without anybody knowing he was JtR, part of the feeling of having annihilated a woman, the feeling that he owned them. To even own them more, he may very well have eaten or tried to eat parts that he took.

All the best,
Frank

[Tom_Wescott]

Lynn,

As you know, much is often made about how the Dear Boss and Saucy Jacky letters arrived around the same time as the Ripper committed his 'double event'. I'm not convinced the Ripper wrote these letters, but neither am I convinced it was coincidence that the letters came at the same time that the Ripper went to work. The reason is that BOTH the letter writer and the Ripper were following the inquests in the papers (or in person) to see what the police and doctors knew - the writer so he would have fodder for the letters, and the Ripper so he could see if they were on his trail. It's circumstancial evidence, but I believe it's strongly suggestive that the Ripper read the papers. I can name other instances like this that point to the same conclusion.

Fish Stix,

You might want to refresh yourself on Dahmer. He was not a 'quick kill' type of chap. He'd hang out with these men, sometimes spending the entire night with them. One of them he drilled a hole in his head and poured acid, attempting to create a living zombie. This actually worked for a time. He didn't want to kill them but felt he had to when they wanted to leave him. He wanted the exact opposite of a 'quick kill'.

Yours truly,

Tom Wescott

[FrankO]

He was more compulsive than brave in that his urge to kill was too strong to ignore. But he took precautions where he could and was clever, so he was no lunatic.

I completely agree with you there, Tom. In my view he was a street-smart and practical bloke. No smooth psychopath, no raving lunatic.

[Fisherman]

Tom W writes:

"You might want to refresh yourself on Dahmer. He was not a 'quick kill' type of chap. He'd hang out with these men, sometimes spending the entire night with them. "

I was referring to one of the killings in which he fed his victim his ordinary Mickey Finn, and as the guy passed out on the floor, Dahmer strangled him in a manner that was described by one psychologist as "blitz-style" - although it was completely unnecessary.
The "zombiefication" you are speaking of represents something that is connected to this in a fashion - he did it to get total control of his victims,he wanted exactly what a zombie is: a living dead. What he did NOT want were participators with minds of their own.
So even if it was not alway about a quick kill, it seems always to have been about a quick gaining of total control.

And how do I know this? Exactly - I HAVE read up on Dahmer, thank you very much!

And your candidate for a good comparison would be...?

The best, Tom!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

Frank van Oploo writes:

"I wonder how important the count of taken away body parts is in deciding whether his motive was sexual or not."

That is a fair point, Frank, and there is little doubt that the Rippers interest in these women seemed centered in the reproductive areas to a major extent, no doubt about it.

On the organ bit, I think it is interesting that he took TWO parts from Eddowes, one of them sexually oriented, and the other not.
One part only would have sufficed if he wanted a souvenir only, or if he wanted a sense of owning and controlling. Two parts - that´s when my thoughts enter the cannibalistic area.

As for the rest of your post, it seems we are much in agreement.

The best, Frank!
Fisherman

[Fisherman]

This, Tom, is the passage I was referring to:

"Masters cites the following example of a crime committed by Jeffrey Dahmer to illustrate the method of approach and the method of attack. On the 20th of May, 1991, Jeffrey Dahmer met Raymond Smith at the 219 Tavern. Dahmer approached him and offered him $50 to come back to his place for sex. This is the method of approach and could most accurately be described as a con. Dahmer used a ruse or ploy to get the prospective victim to lower his guard and follow him back to his apartment. When they arrived back about 3.00 a.m., Smith stated that he would not be staying long for fifty dollars, and Dahmer asked him to stay the night. Smith said it would cost a lot more, and was assured that he would get the rest in the morning. Dahmer went into the kitchen where he mixed up a concoction of alcohol and sleeping tablets. Within half an hour, Smith was unconscious and Dahmer strangled him on the floor. Even though the victim was unconscious, this still constitutes the attack, and in this case, is best described as a blitz."

In essence, Dahmer uses the ruse of a sexual economic agreement - just like the Ripper may well have done. After that, he looses very little time as the couple have reached the apartment. He has the luxury of not having to risk an attack while the prey is still awake and able to offer resistance, and he takes advantage of that. But after he has drugged him, he moves on quickly to aquire what he wanted - a warm, dead body, totally under his control, ripe and ready for cutting.

The similarities are there, I think.

The best,
Fisherman

[FrankO]

On the organ bit, I think it is interesting that he took TWO parts from Eddowes, one of them sexually oriented, and the other not.
One part only would have sufficed if he wanted a souvenir only, or if he wanted a sense of owning and controlling. Two parts - that´s when my thoughts enter the cannibalistic area.

I agree that it's indeed interesting, certainly when we consider that he also took 2 bits in Chapman's case, one perhaps more edible than the other.

The best, Fish!
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

On the organ bit, I think it is interesting that he took TWO parts from Eddowes, one of them sexually oriented, and the other not.

And he also excised a 2' length of her intestine - which might add an element of "mutilating for the sake of it" to the equation; a possibility borne out, perhaps, by what he did to her face.

[Fisherman]

Sam writes:

"And he also excised a 2' length of her intestine - which might add an element of "mutilating for the sake of it" to the equation; a possibility borne out, perhaps, by what he did to her face."

Exactly so, Sam! One can´t help wondering exactly what it was that made him call a halt in Mitre Square, and leave. Was it enough for him? Was he disturbed in some manner? Had he clocked Watkins beat previously, and knew that time was running out?
I am not totally sure about Dahmer, but it would seem that he always stuck to opening his victims bellies up first, taking in the sight and feeling the warmth, and after that he moved on to other, varying activities with his knife - filleting, dismembering, cutting away.
If this holds true - then the parallel is very interesting.

The best,
Fisherman

[Sam Flynn]

One can´t help wondering exactly what it was that made him call a halt in Mitre Square, and leave. Was it enough for him? Was he disturbed in some manner?

Personally, Fish, I think that, when he realised that he was going to have a major problem in removing the caca from his hand(s), he decided to call it a night. This decision might have been helped by the suspicion that a copper was going to call by at any moment - PC Harvey's arrival at one end of the square perhaps reminding him that he was in danger of being caught brown-handed.

[Fisherman]

Hmm, Sam; maybe you are right. Though after having dug around inside Eddowes, knife in hand, cutting away, I would suspect that the only thing he would have felt about his hands would be a sticky, oily feeling. And that would have been expected, given the blood about. In the prevailing darkness, I think it would be hard to tell red from brown, if you take my meaning.
There´s always the smell, though. But would that have put him off?

I´d opt for the presence of the police being the more credible reason for his leaving. But it is anybodys guess, of course.

The best,
Fisherman