Only 1 indoor murder?

[JosephDurham]

The prince was diagnosed with syphilis, and had slept with the prostitues.

[Victor]

That makes more sense. Though you're gonna have to refresh my memory, I haven't watched From Hell in a while, what was the royal family's motive again?

Hi M&P,

From Hell, suggests that PAV sired a child and married another prostitute and the canonical 5 were present at the wedding so needed to be removed to silence the scandal.

KR,
Vic.

[The Good Michael]

Although it was interesting to hear Mike describe lunch conundrums and Mexican food, I dont believe that comparing how sitting decisions are made when eating... to a killer deciding to try a new acquisition and location style for killing, is what amounts to a valid comparative.....with due respect to Mike.

It's about making an easy change in situation in order to achieve an objective. How was my Mexican food excursion different?

Let me add to my analogy that I was able to enjoy my food more, and even have a beer because I was seated. Standing up while eating tacos is kind of a dine and dash thing.

Mike

[miss marple]

HI Michael,
Thanks for replying to my post, I don't agree with you though.
There is no evidence that Mary was on the game when Joe was employed they were living together and all the evidence suggests Joe wanted her off the streets and she did not prostitute herself, while they had money. Caroline Maxwell stated at the inquest ' Since Joe Barnett left her she obtained her living as an unfortunate'
Barnett also said this to Abbeline. They had a big fall out when she invited her prostitute friends Julia Venturney to stay and Maria Harvey Mary after being out of circulation for a while was back, all the locals must have known this, Joe leaving, Mary back on the game.
On the night of her death she invited Blotchy Man back to her room, so she did use her room for prostitution.He was not there for a chat, he may have been a local acquaintence. I think Jack was a local, she may have known by sight.I don't think any of the women were frightened of local guys, they saw around, and in the pub,but the ' alien other' created by the newspapers.
I have not suggested that Jack was bad with a knife. I think he hated women and in death liked to humiliate them,attack their sexual and reproductive parts and dehumanise them. If he wanted organs he would not cut their faces or chuck their guts over their shoulders.It is the most ridiculous inefficent way of harvesting organs i have ever heard of and makes no sense. These murders only make sense if jack was severely disturbed, with a hatred of women.
The butchery of Mary Kelly was the ultimate in destroying her humanity and female parts. The cutting off of her breasts and the disfiguring of her face, the placing of her hand in her guts are particually telling. I don't think this murder or the others have anything to do organ harvesting, the attacks are not clinical, just hate.
Mary' age is irrelevant, she was an opportunity with a room. One entrance is an advantage, she was heard singing in her room,nobody knew when Blotchy left,or what happened after, people were sleeping or dozing, coming and going, There is a surprising amount of privacy in those small rooms behind closed doors.
Cheers Miss Marple

[Limehouse]

Excellent post Miss Marple. I agree with it to the letter.

[perrymason]

Hi again,

I see why you feel the way you do Miss Marple, but I still stand on the other side of the fence on these issues. Youve made some strong assumptions that are guiding you....some like the line that Blotchy is proof of a client in the room. When we know she sang for the better part of an hour and a quarter and that her lights were doused 15 minutes later, that would mean he sat and listened to singing for all that time when he came there for sex. Im opinionated as well.....so I cant throw stones, but I think you should ease up on some beliefs...because the one I stated above is likely incorrect...Blotchy by all accounts of the activities heard and seen was a guest. Maybe he was also her drinking money and a walk home.

Victor....what would climbing out Marys window gain him....using your window substitution? he would still be trapped in the courtyard. What would leaping a fence get him in Hanbury...likely onto separate streets or lanes, ones that Hanbury might not feed into directly. He gets a head start. He jumps out the window in Millers Court hes just as trapped as if he stayed in the room.

Mike....I know what your analogy is, but it assumes we are talking about a man that has shown flexibility. If one man only killed Polly and Annie and perhaps Kate, from the pickup to the end results the overall appearance of the crimes are almost identical. Not variable.

Cheers all.

[Sam Flynn]

Mike....I know what your analogy is, but it assumes we are talking about a man that has shown flexibility.

Killing outside a gateway in an open street in the middle of the night.

Killing in an enclosed back-yard of a well-tenanted terraced dwelling at dawn.

Killing in the narrow entrance to a noisy night-club not long after midnight.

Killing in a partly-occupied square with light streaming from a night-watchman's open door.


... how much more evidence of "flexibility" could one realistically ask for?

[perrymason]

Killing outside a gateway in an open street in the middle of the night.

Killing in an enclosed back-yard of a well-tenanted terraced dwelling at dawn.

Killing in the narrow entrance to a noisy night-club not long after midnight.

Killing in a partly-occupied square with light streaming from a night-watchman's open door.

... how much more evidence of "flexibility" could one realistically ask for?

The one murder in bold is very likely not a Ripper killing, but all the places you mentioned have the same qualities....they were dark and deserted at the time. Bucks Row, 29 Hanbury and Mitre Square......not one person in any of those venues other than the killer and his prey.

And he starts the attack the same way, commits the murder the same way, and finishes with post mortem mutilations.... in each case.

Thats a perfect example of what Ive been talking about too.....making an assumption that the killer was flexible by using murders he most probably never committed within a larger group.... as part of his "profile". Like when using Mary as a Canonical you can then say the killer craved to cut a woman to pieces and finally went indoors to do that....well, if Jack didnt kill Mary,... (and since he never showed many of the traits that are present in the murder details and investigation its a reasonable reality),....then Marys murder details might mean nothing in terms of Jack the Rippers traits, habits or actions.

If anything, the murders that match in almost every respect suggest continuity, repetition, consistency and speed...things mostly absent in room 13.

Best regards Gareth

[Sam Flynn]

The one murder in bold is very likely not a Ripper killing

I was being even-handed in the interests of a fair debate, Mike. My opinions on the Stride murder are fairly well-known, but I wasn't going to allow them to cloud this particular issue.

but all the places you mentioned have the same qualities....they were dark and deserted at the time.

So was Miller's Court which, I might add, was no more or less "deserted" than the well-populated 29 Hanbury Street and its neighbouring houses were. If anything, Miller's Court was more "deserted" than one might think, when one considers that Annie Chapman's "neighbours" were waking up to go to work at the time of her murder.

[perrymason]

I was being even-handed in the interests of a fair debate, Mike. My opinions on the Stride murder are fairly well-known, but I wasn't going to allow them to cloud this particular issue. So was Miller's Court which, I might add, was no more or less "deserted" than the well-populated 29 Hanbury Street and its neighbouring houses were. If anything, Miller's Court was more "deserted" than one might think, when one considers that Annie Chapman's "neighbours" were waking up to go to work at the time of her murder.

No, actually Millers Court was a narrow courtyard to residences that was accessed via what amounts to be a stone tunnel some 20 feet long, and we know that at least 2 women enter that courtyard via that tunnel after midnight, one multiple times.

Hanbury was to prostitutes what Mitre Square also was to some.....a place to do business outdoors. When you have a single case of a prostitute seen in Millers Court bent over the pump servicing a few different men in a night....we'll talk. ....otherwise, these are different venues.

Cheers mate.

[Victor]

What would leaping a fence get him in Hanbury...likely onto separate streets or lanes, ones that Hanbury might not feed into directly.

Hi Mike,

A direct confrontation with Cadosche?

I think that what surrounded the backyard of 29 Hanbury was other backyards, that were overlooked by many residents sleeping areas at a time when they would be rising.

Hanbury was to prostitutes what Mitre Square also was to some.....a place to do business outdoors.

So not only was Jack risking being disturbed by Richardson, but also by other prostitutes and their clients.

KR,
Vic.

[Sam Flynn]

No

Don't you "no" people, when what they say is perfectly true, as what I said in my post certainly was.

and we know that at least 2 women

Two women! Quick, get the barricades out! Oh, wait - don't bother: they're both shagged out, and can't do much harm... furthermore, neither is paying particular attention to Kelly's room... oh, and both were probably safely out of the way when the killer made his move. Panic over.

enter that courtyard via that tunnel after midnight, one multiple times..

Three times, Mike - not "multiple times" at all. Let's please stick to the facts, which show that Miller's Court, at the time of Kelly's death, was most definitely not as "crowded" a prospect as 29 Hanbury Street was at the time of Annie Chapman's.

[FrankO]

Youve made some strong assumptions that are guiding you....some like the line that Blotchy is proof of a client in the room. When we know she sang for the better part of an hour and a quarter and that her lights were doused 15 minutes later, that would mean he sat and listened to singing for all that time when he came there for sex.

Hi Mike,

I have a couple of remarks about MJK and Mr. Blotchy Face. Even though it seems MJK was singing the bigger part of the time between about 11.45 pm and ca. 1 am, it doesn't mean that she couldn't have serviced Mr. BF anyway. All it would have taken is 5 minutes of no singing (or even less) to pull it off. Fact remains that, except for the singing, we don’t know what happened and therefore a lot of things could have happened. We have no indications of anything. As far as I’m concerned, Mr BF could have been out 20 minutes after he’d entered the room.

Secondly, another fact that remains is that MJK took a man back to her room with her and that he seems to have been a relative stranger. Cox didn’t know him and his description apparently didn’t ring a bell with anybody else. If he wasn’t the Ripper, then I don’t see any compelling reason to believe why she couldn’t have picked him up in similar fashion later that night.

Cheers,
Frank

[FrankO]

..., but all the places you mentioned have the same qualities....they were dark and deserted at the time. Bucks Row, 29 Hanbury and Mitre Square......not one person in any of those venues other than the killer and his prey.

Hi again Michael,

I have a couple of remarks here, too.

First, like Gareth wrote, Miller's Court does fit the bill. There were only 3 women who entered or left the court between 11.45 pm and 3 am. By the time she was probably killed, like in the other cases, most people were asleep or trying to sleep, nobody noticed anything suspicious, nobody was there to see him leave.

Secondly, the yard in Hanbury Street wasn't dark at 5.30 am, as the sun had risen that morning at 5.25 am and people were about to rise too. I'd say that in that respect Chapman's murder was significantly different to the other murders.

Goodnight Michael,
Frank

[Sam Flynn]

Secondly, the yard in Hanbury Street wasn't dark at 5.30 am, as the sun had risen that morning at 5.25 am and people were about to rise too...

Added to which, the Ripper was standing directly in line with the back door, and - if the general layout of the houses was the same - a communal lavatory at the bottom of the yard.