Only 1 indoor murder?

[jacks reincarnation]

you are part right , mary kelly did take eddy back to her place for sex as he offered her the money to go back to ireland .

but the double killing took place not on the street but in a private mens club where eddy and his accomplice lured the girls down stairs into the back entrance of the club where the coaches are and strangled the girls .
they aslo filmed the killings on an old fashion film video
then they took the bodies by coach to the murder sites and cut them .

one after the other , which is why they were so close ,

[celee]

Hi,
We are left with two questions..'Was Mjks killer JTR? , or was she the result of a 'Copycat'?
I am flying against the medical findings and suggest that Kelly was killed by the man seen by Caroline Maxwell at 845am on the morning of the 9th. 'the never discussed man 'dressed like a market porter.
Was he Jack? proberly yes, and I feel that she during conversation she suggested that they returned to her room, after all there was no chance of danger at 9am in the morning she would have convinced herself.
The man said [realising he had to fetch his knive] 'Give me five minutes , I have to make an excuse at work' to which came the reply'All right luv, just turn down Millers court second door on the right, come straight in.'
She returns to her room, and proceeds to undress, down to her chemise, she ,may have removed her left stocking and placed in over the bedroll, just before her killer entered the room. then seeing she was very much alone commenced his attack taking poor Mary by complete surprise.
Sorry for the fiction bits , but one should get the drift.
Summing up it suited the killer to work in daylight , for [a] better light, [b]better chance of not being caught, no one expected him to strike during the daytime, and it would have certainly put his victim of guard.
Regards Richard.

Hi,

Okay, I think Kelly left her room after 3am Still confused by drink she meets Jack. Kelly invites the Ripper back to her room. She tells him she lives alone and that he will be very comfortable. The two proceed to her room. Jack watches as Kelly sticks her hand through the broken window to unlock the door. Upon entering the room Kelly starts to undress folding her cloths beside the bed. Mary lies down in a positive position. Jack walks over and attacks her. Kelly manages to let out a screem of Oh murder that it heard by Prater and Lewis around 3:45am. The Ripper does his worst and leaves just before dawn sticking his hand through the broken window to lock the door. I do not believe he started a fire and I think the cloths were burned earlier that day.

Your friend, Brad

[kensei]

A little late chiming in here. I would disagree with Perrymason (though not harshly at all) where he talks about there being "no evidence" of many of the commonly held assumptions. There is a difference between "evidence" and "proof," and it can certainly be said that there is no proof of so many things in the Ripper case. But evidence covers absolutely anything- physical, anecdotal, even speculative- that has been able to be gathered about the case. For instance, one may reject George Hutchinson's story of seeing Mary Jane encounter Astrakan Man at 2 a.m. as being fabricated, but it is still a piece of evidence. If made up, it would just be false evidence.

On the topic itself, only one indoor murder. Well, if one branches out a bit to include other murders that have been considered as being possibly the work of the Ripper (whether credibly or not), just off the top of my head we have Ada Wilson in March 1888 in the East End, Carrie Brown in April 1891 in New York U.S.A., and Emily Dimmock in September 1907 in Camdentown, London, all attacked indoors.
(Oops, I should have said "murders or attempted murders," as Ada didn't die.)

[FrankO]

You see, I wanted Mexican food and that craving allowed me to do something a bit different. I would do it again once I get the craving, though the window purchases are a bit more convenient.

A very good analogy, Mike - simple and clear!

Frank

[FrankO]

For example, If he actually killed only Mary Ann and Annie and perhaps Kate, then he is actually a very organized killer by the evidence left behind.

I do agree that JtR wasn't completely disorganised, but 'very organized', Michael? What about the very fact that he killed outdoors, where anybody could walk into the scene at any given second. From whatever angle you're looking at it, choosing to kill outdoors in a densely populated district with police and people out in the streets at all hours of night is simply far from ‘very organized’.

You said you though JtR would want to savour his acts.....thats a good observation about a killer that loves the killing itself and perhaps torture as well.....

Why couldn’t a killer who gets his kicks out of mutilating dead bodies want to savour their acts?

(the "oh-murder" heard by 2 witnesses at approx 3:45am cannot be the start of that altercation because no words follow that and no sounds or movements are heard,...

Where’s the evidence of ‘that altercation’? All we have is physical evidence that suggests that MJK was killed while lying close to the wooden partition and that the defense she had wanted to put up was very short-lived.

If the cry came from her, it had either nothing directly to do with the attack in which she was killed, or it was uttered right before her throat was cut. That last possibility shouldn’t be swept under the carpet – there is no reason for that at all.

and the space between the open door or window to Marys bed would allow for her to get out more than 2 words),...

…Which suggests there was no altercation starting while she was in bed with her killer entering her room. There’s no compelling reason to think the window or door was open when the cry was uttered to begin with.

... leaving behind the organ that probably caused the first 2 murders, in the opinion of the men that examined those women.

We mustn’t forget that Dr Phillips (because that's the only one we're talking about here) didn’t have any experience with serial killers of this caliber and that he was only trying to make sense of the murders - without this experience. So, even though the womb ‘probably’ caused the first 2 murders according to Dr. Phillips, that doesn’t mean it ‘probably’ did in reality. Or that therefore, he couldn't have left it in a future murder.

Short story made long, but, the ONLY reason you will ever hear that Jack the Ripper wanted, needed, desired, or actually did kill indoors is so Mary Jane Kelly can be attributed to him.

Although I admire Michael’s tenacity to take apart the so-called canonical group, I think that for most who believe MJK was (probably) killed at Jack’s hands, this obviously isn’t the reason why we attribute her to him. It would be a little silly to just want to attribute her to him because we want to.

As far as I can see, the main reason for Michael saying this is because he can’t believe that, with MJK, JtR might have been the kid who found himself alone in a candy shop and who’d feast himself on more than just one or two lollipops. He simply has decided he’s not.

Cheers, Mike!
Frank

[perrymason]

Although it was interesting to hear Mike describe lunch conundrums and Mexican food, I dont believe that comparing how sitting decisions are made when eating... to a killer deciding to try a new acquisition and location style for killing, is what amounts to a valid comparative.....with due respect to Mike.

If you want to believe that Mary went out wthout accepted evidence that says she did...if you want to believe that the killer who killed 4 women outdoors suddenly decides to try something new....like he is just self entertaining, not a victim of a disturbed mind with murderous compulsions,.....and if you want to imagine that Jack sought out a stranger in a courtyard that was less than 10 feet wide, had few tenants, and required that he enter what amounts to a tunnel that is easily blocked from either end,....then you should enjoy entertaining the notion that this kill is a good fit with the previous Ripper kills.

Personally, Ill stick to the activities in that room, the manner of acquisition and attack, the focal points of the rooms activities and the evidence that suggests Mary may well have been asleep from 1:30am until the "oh-murder" call at around 3:45am, if that was her...and without any attack sounds that would inevitably follow had a stranger been seen by her in her dark room,.....that evidence doesnt suggest a natural fit with the Canonical Group.

1 of 5 of the Canonical Group was assumed to have been killed indoors,... the last victim, the one that has wounds none of the previous women had, the one that was half their age, the one that defended herself against a man holding a knife when the evidence in all the priors is that Jack didnt even pull out a knife until his victims were fully "co-operative" and lying on the ground, the one that has 2 former live in lovers as boyfriends simultaneously, and the one that tossed one out of the room 10 days before her death, .......this murder is a contrast to the priors....not a fit for the "Canon".

Cheers all.

[c.d.]

Hi Michael,

Well if you are looking for differences in the murders, you are going to find them no question about it. How can we conclude that Polly, Annie and Kate were killed by the same hand when there were differences in each of their murders? Why ignore some differences and then focus on others? That seems to be a clear case of picking and choosing what we want to focus on. I don't think it is enough to say well yes but they had so many things in common. If there were 100 murders, there would still be differences in each and every one.

c.d.

[perrymason]

Hi Michael,

Well if you are looking for differences in the murders, you are going to find them no question about it. How can we conclude that Polly, Annie and Kate were killed by the same hand when there were differences in each of their murders? Why ignore some differences and then focus on others? That seems to be a clear case of picking and choosing what we want to focus on. I don't think it is enough to say well yes but they had so many things in common. If there were 100 murders, there would still be differences in each and every one.

c.d.

I dont think the problem is as great as you paint it cd.

The murder of Mary Ann and that of Annie Chapmans seem by the evidence to have begun, engaged and concluded in almost identical fashion, the only real significant departure is the fact that only the second one gives up any organs, and the move to more private surrounds. That leads to a natural question of whether the first murder was really complete.

The fact is that this represents escalation....which would be consistent with murderers, ...that it signals a preference for a certain pattern or sequence of actions due to its immediately being repeated,.. it signals calculated thoughts by the killer reflected in a venue change from the street to a backyard, and when you closely examine wounds like the throat cuts themselves and the manner in which that was accomplished.....its not hard to imagine that these 2 women suffered at the same hand....by a killer who killed them to obtain organs inside them, based on the escalation.

My contention is that these features are a part of the killers work;

1. He poses as a client, he doesnt "pounce". Stranger to stranger.
2. He subdues them quickly and efficiently without using a knife.
3. He severely cuts the throats. This to me is one area where a Torso type killer might be seen....he almost cuts the heads off.
4. He opens the midsections and extracts organs to take with him, placing obstacle tissues aside.

I think thats the lowdown on Jack myself. If none of these are present, or in later kills, some are present but not as openly interpretive as the early kills were,...then I dont see Jack there.

All the best cd

[miss marple]

Mart's circumstance

We have to consider Mary's circumstances. She was a well known prostitute, when she met Barnett, When she lived wth him and he was able to support her, she was off the game. When he lost his job,and left Miller's Court she went back on the game.
Lots of people would have known Joe had left. She would certainly have advertised her availability in the Brittania and the Ten Bells her old haunt. She had the great advantage of a room of her own. Jack could be watching her or bying her a drink in her local. A familier face, planning his move.
She was murdered a few days after Joe left.
We know Jack took riisks, cutting women in the street, when he could be caught any moment, so the prospect of a room, where he could take his time and fufill his wildest fantasies of butchery woulkd seem an opportunity too good to miss.

Everyone kept themselves to themselves, it was'nt good to interfer in other people's business. If a man battered his wife on saturaday night, nobody heard it, nobody heard Jack either, or the murder of Tabrum on a stairwell.
Jack was taking less risk by entering Mary's room, his crimes were exceptionally quiet, once the victim was dead. No one was going to enter Mary's room, or be concerned about what was going on in there.
The killing of Mary Kelly was closer to the signature of Jack than any other female murder. He had the time, perhaps had the others been murdered indoors, their mutilations would have been similar.
Perhaps the circomstances of Mary created the opportunity.

Miss Marple

[perrymason]

We have to consider Mary's circumstances. She was a well known prostitute, when she met Barnett, When she lived wth him and he was able to support her, she was off the game. 1. When he lost his job,and left Miller's Court she went back on the game.
Lots of people would have known Joe had left. She would certainly have advertised her availability in the Brittania and the Ten Bells her old haunt. 2. She had the great advantage of a room of her own. Jack could be watching her or bying her a drink in her local. A familier face, planning his move.
She was murdered a few days after Joe left.
We know Jack took riisks, cutting women in the street, when he could be caught any moment, so the prospect of a room, 3.....where he could take his time and fufill his wildest fantasies of butchery woulkd seem an opportunity too good to miss.

Everyone kept themselves to themselves, it was'nt good to interfer in other people's business. If a man battered his wife on saturaday night, nobody heard it, nobody heard Jack either, or the murder of Tabrum on a stairwell.
4. Jack was taking less risk by entering Mary's room, his crimes were exceptionally quiet, once the victim was dead. 5. No one was going to enter Mary's room, or be concerned about what was going on in there.
6. The killing of Mary Kelly was closer to the signature of Jack than any other female murder. He had the time, perhaps had the others been murdered indoors, their mutilations would have been similar.
Perhaps the circomstances of Mary created the opportunity.

Miss Marple

Hi Miss Marple,

I disagree with so much of the above that I thought it best to address it systematically, so I highlighted and numbered some statements so I dont lose track.. ....

1. When Joe left Millers Court we have no evidence that suggests she went back on her game, or that his presence was the sole reason she hadnt worked steadily and they had fallen behind further in rent. He stated he didnt want her working the streets which in and of itself suggests where she "worked". There is not one bit of evidence that Mary came to her room with anyone she didnt know personally during that period.

2. She had a great advantage having a room over most women her age who were alone, thats true, but we have no records that indicate she ever used a personal residence in her name for prostitution, and we can surely accept that having ones own space to oneself might lend itself to her having privacy she never had before. Would she bring strange men into her room while the Ripper scare is still about? I dont see any reason why she would...she was delinquent in rent yet not in danger of immediate eviction apparently.

3. Who says the man that killed Polly and Annie had "wild fantasies of butchery"? Seems to me the evidence submitted suggests that man had a goal that he achieved with Annie and not with Polly, and he acheived it with some skill and knowledge. They werent just cut wildly...they were cut open in an area so they could donate organs from that area.

4. Room 13 is the ONLY alledged Ripper location that had only one access in and out to the crime scene, and the location of the bed meant that he worked with his back to the windows and door. Hardly the safest spot. Maybe the less traveled.

5. We have 2 witness who live there that testified they noticed light, or not, and noise from Marys room that night. Neighbors are neighbors even in the LVP.

6. Mary Jane was half the age of the prior assumed victims, she was killed in her own room by a killer who likely came to her while she slept, she is butchered far beyond any prior Ripper murder, the assumed focus for the first 2 murders is clearly absent in that murder, and he started the assault using his knife....something that happened in none of the priors, excluding Liz Stride perhaps. Another questionable inclusion.

The truth is that Mary Jane was either an anomaly if Jack, a victim he chooses differently and kills for different reasons in different places....or she is quite obviously primary intended to be an organ donor.

For my money she an anomaly, and as such, questionable, ....she also has a love triangle ongoing, which none of the others had happening.

All the best Miss M.

[JosephDurham]

Perhaps the fact that the murder took pplace inddors has something to do with the necessity of the murder. If we look at the Prince being involved, it is a possibility that there was no other way to carry this out, but by murdering her in her bed?

Joseph

[Victor]

4. Room 13 is the ONLY alledged Ripper location that had only one access in and out to the crime scene, and the location of the bed meant that he worked with his back to the windows and door. Hardly the safest spot. Maybe the less traveled.

Hi Mike,

How many exits does the backyard of Hanbury street have?

KR,
Vic.

ps. Assuming that jumping over a fence is equivalent to jumping through a window.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Perhaps the fact that the murder took pplace inddors has something to do with the necessity of the murder. If we look at the Prince being involved, it is a possibility that there was no other way to carry this out, but by murdering her in her bed?

Ah, but didn't the Prince kill his other victims out on the street?

[JosephDurham]

Not if the prince did not kill the victims, but the murderer was hired by the royal family.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

That makes more sense. Though you're gonna have to refresh my memory, I haven't watched From Hell in a while, what was the royal family's motive again?