The Ripper's "Charm"

[Filby]

Interesting to think about, But I believe JtR was more of an opportunist of the moment. And likely being lower class member of the area (imo) I doubt truly he was a charmer with tangibles. This would hold true especially if you believe BS man was JtR.

[Barnaby]

Ha! I was oblivious to the dates and read it like it was a new thread, even liking some posts. Not related to Jack the Ripper, but I think some were underestimating Bundy's charm. Yeah, he used deceit and didn't woo them out on dates. He probably could have employed this m.o. though, the evidence being he was perfectly capable of establishing and maintaining sexual relationships with women, and even convincing them it was a genuine relationship. Also, people are notoriously oblivious to helping strangers in need in crowded places (the bystander effect) such as at Lake Sammamish. I realize he approached them, which would have gone some way in overcoming this, but I'm not so sure he would have had the same "success" if he were just perceived as Joe Ordinary. The women he attracted while on trial in Florida suggests some level of charm.

There, I took a JTR personality thread turned into a Hutch thread and turned it into a Bundy thread.

But, are we (myself included) underestimating the charm of Jack? At the height of the Ripper scare, would it be sufficient to present himself as a regular john? Or did he have an above-average ability to put them at ease?

[The Rookie Detective]

Bump up for this excellent thread.

Nearly 15 years have passed...


An "oldie, but a goodie"

[curious]

hi, Michael,

Like you, I'd considered Liz Stride's earned money that day as the source for the velvet fabric and the flower.

As such a newbie, I'm not sure what's "fact" and what isn't, but on the information about Annie Chapman, I read: Had three recently acquired brass rings on her middle finger (missing after the murder)

so, I'd wondered about the "recently acquired" part.

Also, I'd wondered about the red silk neckerchief worn by Catherine Eddowes -- it seems "finer" than the rest of her stuff, although she had more listed than any of the others.

I need to search through the threads and become much more familiar with everything, though, before developing any theories myself.

Was thinking this exact same thing -- about the gifts, just today.

Polly Nichols was very proud of her "jolly bonnet" -- was it new?
Annie Chapman had new rings, which were stolen.
Liz Stride had the flower AND left a large piece of green velvet with Cathering Lane
Catherine Eddowes ??
Mary Jane Kelly -- the red kerchief
Could all these have been gifts from JTR? I think most classes of men know certain little facts about wooing -- which might have served to make the women feel safer.

Kate Eddowes was wearing a black jacket that she bought while hopping, either just before or while returning, so no "gift" there.

On the other points, Pollys bonnet was new...we dont know where it came from, Annies rings werent new but they were taken even though cheap imitation gold (brass), Liz Stride had no flower on her breast when she left the lodging house but she should have had the 6d she was paid for cleaning the rooms that afternoon until almost 6pm...that flower and the cashous seem like new acquisitions but she did have some dosh....and the police believed as of November 16th that George Hutchinson had made a false statement and his story was then "disbelieved"....so the red hanky or kerchief is still only an element in the Mitre Square murder... on the suspect seen with Kate....without astrakan.

Best regards

[JTRSickert]

Curious, that was my opinion as well. others may disagree but we have to remember that at the very least by the time of the Chapman killing, there was this atmosphere of terror generated by the press and the public alike. So, in order for JTR to make his victims trust him more, I think he may have charmed them with the gifts you have mentioned. That is just my opinion, however.

[curious]

Was thinking this exact same thing -- about the gifts, just today.

Polly Nichols was very proud of her "jolly bonnet" -- was it new?
Annie Chapman had new rings, which were stolen.
Liz Stride had the flower AND left a large piece of green velvet with Cathering Lane
Catherine Eddowes ??
Mary Jane Kelly -- the red kerchief
Could all these have been gifts from JTR? I think most classes of men know certain little facts about wooing -- which might have served to make the women feel safer.

Thanks Ben.Interesting and a pity we dont know anything further about why etc.I must confess I had missed that piece of news.
My biggest question over the evidence of Schwartz is whether there were two "rippers" operating that night,because if Stride was murdered by BS man,what role was 5ft 11 in "pipe man" playing? Maybe we need to call on Tom for answers
OK Monty----not on this thread.........

Does that height and the general description of Pipeman remind you of anyone Nats? Maybe someone rooming on Batty Street?

On the thread matter though....I think charm can be negated when fear enters, and a charming stranger would send off more alarms than ease their fears after a few murders that Fall. Martha, not even assumed to be a Ripper victim, scared the hell out of people. Check the accounts of how active the streets were the immediate weeks following the Double Event.

Caution was all over the place....charm meets caution,....and the effects that charm has are negated.

Best regards

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

So it looks like it wasnt so much that Hutchinson"s statement was "discredited" per se, but that once the press had hold of it ,it interfered with the police search for him.

No. It's clear from the Daily Echo that the apparent discrediting of Hutchinson's description was the result of doubt's surrounding Hutchinson's credibility and motivation, and not because the press had got wind of the story. The vast majority of eyewitness descriptions were released to the press, but we know they were kept in circulation without being discarded shortly after their first appearance. Joseph Lawende was apparently used in subsequent identification attempts despite his description making the papers.

Best regards,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Ben,
Only as an "addendum" to above post:it would appear that Hutchinson"s statement to the press ,following his statement to the police, caused the CID at the time to see it as blighting their efforts to trace the suspect by alerting him to the hunt for him and even possibly causing him to change his appearance as a result.So it looks like it wasnt so much that Hutchinson"s statement was "discredited" per se, but that once the press had hold of it ,it interfered with the police search for him.Unfortunately we dont have an explanation from the police themselves at the time as files relating to this matter have been lost.The description Hutchinson gave had been circulated to "police stations" only-not the general public or press.The last important dispute between police and press apparently occurred because of this press description which by the 13th November was in the columns of all the morning and evening papers.
Ben, which thread do you wish to continue this on...that is if you want to discuss it further ?
Best
Norma

[Natalie Severn]

Thanks Ben.Interesting and a pity we dont know anything further about why etc.I must confess I had missed that piece of news.
My biggest question over the evidence of Schwartz is whether there were two "rippers" operating that night,because if Stride was murdered by BS man,what role was 5ft 11 in "pipe man" playing? Maybe we need to call on Tom for answers
OK Monty----not on this thread.........

[Monty]

Came here to have a read on Jack and charm but seems I have wandered onto a Hutchinson/witness thread.

Monty

[Ben]

Hi Norma,

I have actually read your stuff on Hutchinson previously and have not seen any spelt out "discreditation" as you put it,but if you believe its what can be inferred thats fine

It was the very word The Star used on 15th November under the heading: Worthless Stories Lead the Police on False Scents.

http://www.casebook.org/press_reports/star/s881115.html

I'm not disputing the veracity of the PC Smith sighting, but I'm doubtful that the man described was Stride's killer on the grounds that another suspect was seen afterwards by Schwartz whose appearance and behaviour didn't mesh up too well with Smith's. Neither of them sound much like Klosowski either. At least with the Lawende's sighting, the timing provided a reasonable degree of assurance that the man seen was the ripper.

both Police inspectors very much supported Abberline"s view,even many years later, of Chapman as the Ripper,a man who could apparently charm the birds off the trees!

Possibly an exaggeration?

All the best,
Ben

[Natalie Severn]

Hi Ben,
I have actually read your stuff on Hutchinson previously and have not seen any spelt out "discreditation" as you put it,but if you believe its what can be inferred thats fine .Several police officers cited the PC Smith description put out at the time ,of the man being 5ft 7 approx,respectably dressed, in a dark cut away coat,dark deer stalker cap,aged about 28 pale ,carrying a newspaper parcel and both Inspector Godley who worked on both the ripper case and Arthur Neil cited this description and both Police inspectors very much supported Abberline"s view,even many years later, of Chapman as the Ripper,a man who could apparently charm the birds off the trees!
Ben - I have said what I wanted and its ok to differ.
BTW I dont dismiss Lawende"s man,its just that Lawende insisted to police he couldnt remember the man and couldnt be sure he would recognise him again so I am a bit more cautious than some about his description.
Cheers
Norma

[Lex]

just to pop this in . . .

When I think Jack the Ripper, I would very much like to think of a charming, mysterious man who cunningly lures in his victims -- I'm sure a lot of us would.

But the women that were killed were prostitutes. They weren't looking for charm. They were looking for money. And also, handsome men back then would've been snatched up pretty quickly by women, but most profiles said he would've had a great disgust and loathing for them. It is also speculated that he was most likely unmarried. It would've been widely noticed if someone who had many women falling all over him and didn't even show interest in them (and if he did, wouldn't it be noticed if he never married)? In which case he probably would've been thought a homosexual, but whatever. It still would've been noticed.

I don't know. I think it's very probable that he was a man who used charm to draw in his victims, but it's also very probable that he wasn't.