Posing

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I don't think the Ripper posed any of his victims and just did his thing and left the bodies as they were. It's not as if he could've disposed of them and cleaned up at the murder scene to make it look as though nothing happened.

About the position of MJK's body, and more specifically her hand, at first I thought he pushed it into her emptied gut but looking back in hindsight it could be something as simple as just lifting her arm up from draping off the edge of the bed and throwing it back onto her body. Though at the same time her wrist does look a bit bent as though it had been forced to an extent, but that doesn't necessarily indicate that Jack had posed it.

Though whether he wanted the poor sods who found them to be horrified by the state he'd left them is anyone's guess. I suppose he could've but he probably didn't bear it much thought; he seems kind of a selfish dude to me with next to no regards for other people.

[Mitch Rowe]

I thought that ACs hand my have dropped to her womb after JTR possibly removed her rings but considering no blood was described as being on her hand or on the secret purse its more likely JTR did that stuff before the mutilations. Its just far too coincidental to me to consider that JTR did not pose at least some of the bodies. At least ACs and MJKs.. The ones wich seem the most likely that JTR was not disturbed by passers by.

[The Good Michael]

All of the victims were 'posed' in that they were were murdered and not allowed to expire a natural death. Therefore, all bodies were somewhat manipulated by the killer. That manipulation technically, constitutes posing. As for Kelly, there is nothing overtly ritualistic about what was done to her. A case can be made that the killer simply placed what he removed, wherever there was room at arm's length. The table, between her feet (Kelly's knees being bent and easily withing reach), and at her side. The placing of her uterus and breast under her head seems somewhat problematic, and this is where people get hung up on ritualism. We've debated the word 'under' before and realize that it can mean simply, 'lower than' with regards to the head. These items may also have been placed above her head and slid down when he was working on her face, possibly moving her head around to get the lighting he wanted.

There are many possibilities and it seems to me the idea of ritualistic posing is something that people want to see, and especially if they don't want to see Kelly as a Ripper victim.

Indeed, the random placing of items as they were removed must be the most logical conclusion. But, who knows?

Cheers,

Mike

[smezenen]

A few of my thoughts about MJK’s body position.
It’s possible that someone other than her killer placed her arm across her body.
Consider that the photographer may have done some positioning before snapping the photo. I think (it’s my opinion) the bed was moved in order for him to get into position to take at least some of the photos so maybe he or one of the policeman that entered the room saw her arm dangling off the bed and moved it as they repositioned the bed.
Maybe moving her arm from a dangling un-natural position to a “comfortable/natural" position was done as an act of kindness toward the victim. This may even have been done unconsciously.
It may have been done by the killer unconsciously, maybe he was looking for a place to remove more flesh, intending to take some from the arm and then changed his mind and dropped her arm and it fell into that position.
However even after these thought are explored there is still the uterus under her head that can’t be explained in the same manner. It MUST have been PLACED there by the killer, so yes at least some elements of the crime scene are constructed by the killer for some reason known only to him. Was it to create a scene of horror? What more effect could it have in comparison to an eviscerated body? If the body had been nailed to the wall with the arms outstretched like Christ on the cross then I would say “yep he was sending a message” but in this case I think the killer places things where he did for much more mundane reasons and those reasons are known only to him, they hold meaning only for him, the pile of flesh on the table because that’s the closest, most convenient place, besides the bed or the floor, to put a hand full of flesh. The uterus under the head is a hard one to figure out, but if you ever find JTR and ask I bet his reason would make no sense to us and would only have meaning to him.

[The Good Michael]

Smez,

I agree about there not being a message. It was just his work being done. As I said, placing something under the head is more difficult, and the coroner's report isn't explicit enough for us to say that the head was lifted up and items were placed squarely under it and then the head was placed back in position... much like a paperweight. To say that it is so is purely surmise. Indeed, if the head only slightly overlapped a pile of placed matter, one could still say the matter was under it.

No ritualism or message that I see, though no doubt, as you say, the killer surely had some thoughts going on his head as to why he did what he did.

Cheers,

Mike

[richardnunweek]

Hi,
I have a feeling that the arrangement of certain parts could be the work of a jilted lover, we already have the massive facial damage, which is obliterating her as a person, and I have a hunch, that the placing of breasts, and uterus, under the head represents to the killer that the sexual feelings of the victim came from the head , not the heart, and because of that the heart was missing , for the killer saw her as not having one.
I Hate to say it but Fleming, and Barnett, are still way at the top, of my suspect list, at least for the kelly murder. and with the former nearing insanity, mayby even of being the Whitechapel killer.
Regards Richard.

[Victor]

...parts of Mary Jane were certainly put in the place they are left by her killer.

Hi all,
I think that most of the organ placements can be explained by where Jack was when he removed them, such as MJK's breasts were cut whilst Jack was on the right side of the bad, and he dropped them to his right (Mary's head area) with his right hand and they fell into the space between her neck and shoulder, which could imply that the knife was in his left hand at the time.

A uterus doesnt naturally "fall" under Marys head, nor does a breast

It depends upon where it is put, or thrown, after it is removed. Mary's head appears to be on some sort of pillow so gravity would cause anything on the pillow to fall around her shoulders and maybe under the neck.

"Posing" isnt restricted to adjusting arms and legs like a store mannequin, or "Voguing" like Madonna suggests.....its also used as in this definition.... "to place in a suitable position or attitude for a picture, tableau, or the like: to pose a group for a photograph.".....or more appropriately for this thread, ...."to put or place".

If "posing" doesn't include 'to place in a suitable position or attitude for further manipulation' then I don't think they were deliberately posed.

KR,
Vic.

[Suzi]

Hi all-
This has got us all going hasn't it!!!! Having a row with hubby here which isn't helping LOL

OK -I reckon he was on the right hand side of the bed, facing the door wall- hacking upwards from the 'er underneaths to start with once Mary had been cut through the throat- hence the spray up the wall against the wall/partition- dead hopefully at this time.

After that there is a problem IMHO- I think he may have started to look for organs/items that could be noticed by the police on 'discovery'- sadly there was nothing hung around the room- just the odd nastiness- on the odd table or around the body- Poor Walter (Aged 17 yrs!)

Suz x

Wonder what happened to the heart-- the fire of course has to be an option!....Ah the kettle.....tea anyone? x

[The Good Michael]

I think that most of the organ placements can be explained by where Jack was when he removed them

"Good Minds..." and that sort of thing.

Cheers,

Mike

[Suzi]

OK where were we x

[The Good Michael]

OK where were we x

Suzi,

I believe we had settled on the 'not posed' scenario.

Helpful Mike

[Suzi]

Thank Gawd for that!!!! OK women were killed and left in positions various- not posed! ........

[perrymason]

Hi all,

It seems that despite the fact that a definition of the word "posing" itself says to "put or place", people still dont want to think that her uterus was under her head for any reason other than a natural placement under the circumstances.

The point I was trying to make is that the body did have things "put" and "placed" about it, so it was "posed".....not that this means its obviously some kind of communication by the killer. He may be entertaining himself, it may be his sense of esthetics...there doesnt need to be any subliminal messaging going on. He may have wanted to see her as watching him leave to explain the head position and maybe the organs for head support to allow that. Who knows.

The one thing I think we can see by the glut of debauchery is that he had no idea why he did certain things, I think he was extremely curious and that shows in things like Marys right thigh. Its one reason I suspect the killer was doing these things to replicate the types of things he had heard about earlier that Fall.

Best regards all.

[Suzi]

Hi Michael-
Just looked up POSE in Chambers- as you do- Love this....to puzzle- to perplex by questions...excellent 'eh!

Whilst looking for that just found out that a Pollywog is.................... a tadpole!!!! MUST put that into my day to day vocabulary!!!!....Back to MJK.............

[perrymason]

Hi Michael-
Just looked up POSE in Chambers- as you do- Love this....to puzzle- to perplex by questions...excellent 'eh!

Whilst looking for that just found out that a Pollywog is.................... a tadpole!!!! MUST put that into my day to day vocabulary!!!!....Back to MJK.............

You see Suz, the more you look into "posing" the more it seems quite applicable to the case in point. As I said, I really dont see "messaging" in that...but this is behavior that to my eye is new. Even with his placement of intestines over shoulders of victims and the colon section between Kates arm and body, I can see simple explanations for those including the most obvious...to remove obstructions and/or obstacles. But the mere fact that he might be removing "obstacles" infers that there is something more that is to be done after the removal and placement. The moves of biological material help facilitate the access to his objectives.

Thats why I see this crime scene as if it was created by someone who was "stumbling" around....for lack of a better expression at the moment.

All the best Suzi