Posing

[poorhoney]

Hi all,

Do you believe that the Whitechapel Murderer deliberately posed his victims? And if so, for his benefit or to shock those who found the body?

-Honey

[c.d.]

Hi Honey,

I don't think that there was any need to do so since they were gruesome enough as they were and I don't think that Jack was out to make any kind of statement.

c.d.

[Suzi]

OK-There is the common denominator of the 'spread legs' but I think this is a non runner here- perhaps the legs of a cadaver upon it's back fall that way- maybe, but unlikely 100% of the time..

I can't go with a 'positioning' thing- why bother- as cd says the shock value would have been enough and any 'arty' positioning would be lost in the horror of the discovery- surely.Now if they'd been in some bizarre fashion as shown in the Black Dahlia etc etc then maybe we could look at this as a 'signature'.

Suz x

[poorhoney]

My two cents

My own opinion, and it is all supposition, is that the first four were not posed, that the positions of the bodies were the result of the murderer doing his "business". I think that he did deliberately pose Mary's body, and that he did it for his own personal pleasure. *shudders*

[miss marple]

I think they were posed, and the the skirts were pulled up above the waist, legs apart.
The only one who was'nt posed was Stride, who was left quickly and and maybe not quite dead, as she was still warm and blood flowing when she was found.
Miss Marple

[kensei]

With the first victims, I feel the Ripper had his choice of how to position himself while doing his cutting- straddle the legs, or spread them and kneel between them, and he simply chose the latter. With Mary Kelly, I think he did pose her inasmuch as he shoved her left hand into her abdominal cavity for whatever reason had meaning for him, but otherwise no.

[Mitch Rowe]

Consider the positions of ACs and MJKs bodies. It seems JTR MUST have posed them.

[miss marple]

motive

I 've always had a feeling they were posed and i think its to do with motive. I Include Martha Tabrum in this as although the modis operandi was slightly different, the intention behind the cuts and the way the body was laid seems to have the same motive. Her body was described as laid out as if ready for sex, legs bent and wide apsrt, the shirt pulled well up to her waist. Nicholls,Chapman and Eddows were laid out in a similar fashion, and it is interesting the when these bodies were discovered the instinct was, to pull their skirts down.There is a shame thing going on here, not just to mutilate them, but to expose their mutilated private parts.
I think Jack hated women for what ever reason, bad mother, terrible experience with women, destructive childhood, who knows.
The killing is a means to an end, the throat cutting, the quickest way of silencing them, to get to the point he wanted, the dehumanising and humilating of the corpses.
Martha may have been his first, an explosion of anger, thel laying out of the corpse,released something, then becoming more effective, planning his revenge on women. Coolly planning to cut their throats first to achieve his aim.
I 'm sure a lot of people won't agree, but its the only scenario that makes any sense to me. We all have our theories.
Miss Marple

[Suzi]

Hi Miss Marple-
IMHO the poor women who were killed were killed in a short amount of time in very often a place that could be on the trail of a) the public or b) the police beat- The possibility of 'Posing' cannot be cosidered surely.
Cut 'em up and quick and be off I say....as did "Jack" IMHO

[miss marple]

Very funny Suzie.
But as we know now with our knowledge of seriial killers, their motives are never simple,Jack was probably a psychopath,quite organised who enjoyed taking risks. Posing the bodies would take seconds, he'd already spent time cutting without worrying about being caught.
For me the misogyny of the crimes is their most compelling feature.
Cheers Miss Marple

[poorhoney]

I have always pictured the murderer taking a lot of time with MJK's body, putting the hand just so, stepping back to look, tilting the head this way, no that way, and admiring his work. It wouldn't surprise me if he had carried on a conversation with the body. Again, all supposition.

-Honey

[perrymason]

I have always pictured the murderer taking a lot of time with MJK's body, putting the hand just so, stepping back to look, tilting the head this way, no that way, and admiring his work. It wouldn't surprise me if he had carried on a conversation with the body. Again, all supposition.

-Honey

I cant side with you on the speculation they "chatted" while he cut Honey.... ...but that left arm was certainly placed back across the open cavity....the uterus didnt fall under her head, and we will never know if her head was meant to face the door or not....but to me youre correct, that the scene on the bed was purposefully made by the killer.

Why? ......................If we knew that...then this would be quite boring woudnt it?

Best regards Honey

[Suzi]

Sigh-
The women were killed....OK MJK may be something else... but ...Posing- 'shurely not'.... In the others- to this day VERY few serials (!) ' pose' their kills (Ghastly thought)

OK they may take the odd (!) thing from them like Fred West did with his small bones- but positioning?- odd and unlikely in the Ripper case IMHO

[perrymason]

Sigh-
The women were killed....OK MJK may be something else... but ...Posing- 'shurely not'.... In the others- to this day VERY few serials (!) ' pose' their kills (Ghastly thought)

OK they may take the odd (!) thing from them like Fred West did with his small bones- but positioning?- odd and unlikely in the Ripper case IMHO

Hi Suzi,

However distasteful to you ....parts of Mary Jane were certainly put in the place they are left by her killer. And since Jack is only assumed to have been a serial killer, ......(a man or women who kills more than 2 strangers because he has compulsions to kill,...instead of what he more probably was, a multiple murderer with motivations for the murders that are not yet understood), .......serial criminal statistics or traits are used prematurely for comparison with Jacks actions here I would think.

A uterus doesnt naturally "fall" under Marys head, nor does a breast, and the arm across the body that could not have been in that same position when he is emptying that cavity was placed back over the empty space.

"Posing" isnt restricted to adjusting arms and legs like a store mannequin, or "Voguing" like Madonna suggests.....its also used as in this definition.... "to place in a suitable position or attitude for a picture, tableau, or the like: to pose a group for a photograph.".....or more appropriately for this thread, ...."to put or place".

Things were indeed "put" and "placed" about Mary and that room to some extent...so the argument is really about a moot point....the "posing" is certainly present based on the definition of the word itself.

Cheers Suz, all the best.

[Mitch Rowe]

Very good point concerning the placement of the organs perrymason.. The killer must have been trying to send a message. The hand to the womb must have been important to him. No signs of JTR restraining MJK. No signs at all that JTR was actually sadistic towards the women while alive. I can only conclude the corpses themselves were part of the killers motives.