motivation

[Sam Flynn]

But the circumstances of her murder differ quite a bit from Annies or Pollys...Kate goes the opposite direction of where her boyfriend would likely be when released

One can't use the "direction a victim was walking in" as a discriminating factor, Mike. The killer had no influence over the direction in which a victim had decided to walk 40-odd minutes earlier.

Like I've said before, we must distinguish very carefully between those factors which are under the direct control of the killer, and those which are not.

within 45 minutes of her release she is killed while 7 or 8 current or ex policemen are the closest people to her and the killer.

Unless they were part of some sort of plan, I can't see how their presence was anything other than a coincidence. Plus - do we know whether or not any current or ex policemen lived in the vicinity of the previous murders or not? We don't, because the papers don't mention them.

Like I've said before, we really must take on board the fact that our view of events is based on very patchy and incomplete evidence at best, of which - to compound matters - not all has survived.

[perrymason]

Hi Sam,

I suppose a less controversial way to phrase my opinions would be the bits after the bits you quoted....when I said that Kate was not killed for her uterus.

Whats present in terms of motivations in the first 2 murders that is backed with contemporary medical opinion is not present in the 3rd, or the 4th, or the 5th murders in the Canonical series.

Therefore the circumstances of Kates murder....since she is probably picked up, attacked and killed in the same fashion as the first 2, are what we have to assess her Canonical viability. As in all "Ripper" cases, the post mortem wounds themselves are not the only relevant factors.

What is important with the wounds and the extractions is that in no other murders other than Pollys and Annies was the obtaining of the uterus cited as a probable motivator for the murders themselves.

And I can see motives in at least one or 2 of the Canonicals that wouldnt include a Ripper...(who is the man that surfaced with Pollys murder, therefore a killer with a focus on the female internal abdomen at least).... as the fiend.

Best regards Sam

[Howard Brown]

Whats present in terms of motivation in the first 2 murders that is backed with contemporary medical opinion is not present in the 3rd, or the 4th, or the 5th murders in the Canonical series.


Dear Mike:

If no organs were removed in the Nichols' murder... and I would guess that there was an intent to remove one or two before being disturbed by something or someone...then how does the motivation of the Nichols' murder correlate with the motivation found 8 days later with Mrs. Chapman's murder any more so or less than the subsequent murder of Eddowes ?

What is similar or as you suggest, present, in terms of motivation between Nichols' murder and Chapman's but not Eddowes, if Nichols' murder doesn't find her being violated to the point of having organs removed as the 2nd and 4th canonical were?

Later Mike.

[perrymason]

Whats present in terms of motivation in the first 2 murders that is backed with contemporary medical opinion is not present in the 3rd, or the 4th, or the 5th murders in the Canonical series.


Dear Mike:

If no organs were removed in the Nichols' murder... and I would guess that there was an intent to remove one or two before being disturbed by something or someone...then how does the motivation of the Nichols' murder correlate with the motivation found 8 days later with Mrs. Chapman's murder any more so or less than the subsequent murder of Eddowes ?

What is similar or as you suggest, present, in terms of motivation between Nichols' murder and Chapman's but not Eddowes, if Nichols' murder doesn't find her being violated to the point of having organs removed as the 2nd and 4th canonical were?

Later Mike.

Hi Howard,

Its choice.

Choosing an organ, not taking any organ. In the first 2 cases, as you know, the doctors that performed the autopsies suggested that both murders were likely committed to obtain the organ successfully taken from Annie.

We know by means of a press report that was authenticated by one official of a Teaching Hospital in the London area that the uterus had a value as a specimen to a strange American doctor. That value was substantial at that time, and in my opinion, enough to incite aggression and violence if need be to obtain it, by people who were starving and homeless. Maybe even enough to cause a med student to sideline to help pay the education costs.

Ive never heard a similar story for kidney samples, or heart samples, so thats where I drew the line.

My best as always Mr Brown.

[Archaic]

Myriad Motivations

Hi, Lynn. That's an interesting list of possible motives you provided; thank you.

I think that the Ripper had a rather complex set of personal motivations, which is why his actions still puzzle us 120 years later.
I chose the following from your list:

1. Misogyny.
2. Sexual gratification in killing.
3. Sexual gratification in knifing.
4. Organ harvesting.
5. Revenge against society.
6. Revenge against women.
7. Revenge against mother.

Revenge against prostitutes (I believe he despised prostitutes, but I don't know if the reason was as specific as because his mother -or another woman close to him- was one, or if he got an std.)

10. Proving superiority to others.
11. Playing a mental game with police.

20. Other (please specify): Desire to be famous/notorious,
Desire to be in the newspapers,
Sexual gratification in fantasizing, orchestrating & carrying out the whole thing- ie: he got a form of sexual gratification from all aspects combined.


> I think it is precisely because the Ripper experienced myriad motivations, all of which he sought to explore and express through multiple murders, that we as observers have a tendency to perceive & seize upon different aspects of their dynamic interplay in his crimes.

I don't believe that any of his numerous motivations are mutually exclusive... in fact, I think that they acted rather like "accelerants"
and heightened one another. I see them all as facets of a very damaged psyche.

Best regards, Archaic

(Hope this makes sense; I'm a bit bleary-eyed this morning! )

[lynn cates]

prostitute per se/per accidens

Hello. That's an interesting theory.

I have often wondered if it was specifically prostitutes he was after or if they were just easy targets.

Do you suppose he was opposed to them for moral reasons? I know that sounds odd, but is not without precedent. He might have been deeply religious in a funny sort of way.

LC

[Sam Flynn]

We know by means of a press report that was authenticated by one official of a Teaching Hospital in the London area that the uterus had a value as a specimen to a strange American doctor.

But that was only AFTER Wynne "Sticky-Beak" Baxter had been irresponsible enough to expand upon the idiotic theory in the course of Annie Chapman's inquest. It was only after the pompous coroner had lent it such weight that the press at large got to know about the story, so it is exceptionally unlikely that this story could have influenced the womb-stealer of Whitechapel before that point.

Ive never heard a similar story for kidney samples, or heart samples,.

So, let's get this straight: because a half-cocked theory championed by Wynne Baxter after the death of Annie Chapman only mentions uteri, you dismiss Catherine Eddowes as a Ripper victim, because she had her uterus AND kidney removed? Can't quite go along with that rationale.

so thats where I drew the line

I'd draw the line at Baxter's pet theory being total and utter sensationalist bollocks, if I were you, Mike. That way, you might find it doesn't compromise your clarity of thought when assessing some of the other murders in the series.

[perrymason]

But that was only AFTER Wynne "Sticky-Beak" Baxter had been irresponsible enough to expand upon the idiotic theory in the course of Annie Chapman's inquest. It was only after the pompous coroner had lent it such weight that the press at large got to know about the story, so it is exceptionally unlikely that this story could have influenced the womb-stealer of Whitechapel.
So, let's get this straight: because a half-cocked theory championed by Wynne Baxter after the death of Annie Chapman only mentions uteri, you dismiss Catherine Eddowes as a Ripper victim, because she had her uterus AND kidney removed? Can't quite go along with that rationale.I'd draw the line at Baxter's pet theory being total and utter sensationalist bollocks, if I were you, Mike. That way, you might find it doesn't compromise your clarity of thought when assessing some of the other murders in the series.

Hi Sam,

Its not an unbelievable premise at all, in fact it has the historical precedent... and the existing conditions in 1888 were not much improved for those medical students and researchers. This was a real, not imagined, issue. Access to cadavers for study was difficult, Ill bet some more grave robbing cases came up in those same years. Do I feel certain that the 2 women that start the series were killed specifically so that the killer could obtain their uteri? Of course not. But I wont discount a viable premise that orginated by the men that examined the women without some reason to.

The thing about Catherine isnt just the organs, although no-one has ever suggested that she may have been killed for her partial uterus...its the circumstances...and the appearance of actions uncharacteristic of a killer attempting to get internal organs. Things are done to Kate that serve no extraction purposes, or to serve the killers death wishes. That is new. Arguably the superfluous cuts and slices on Polly and Annie were a result of haste and light and a bunch of factors.

Cheers Sam

[Sam Flynn]

Its not an unbelievable premise at all, in fact it has the historical precedent...

My point was that, since this fanciful (for which read, "ridiculous") story was only made public by Baxter's irresponsible mention of it at the Chapman inquest, it couldn't possibly have influenced what Annie Chapman's killer did to her. The "womb-harvesting" theory is a complete red-herring, and was from the start

If I had a time machine, I'd kick Baxter's arse for being so irresponsible in spouting such nonsense in the first place.

[perrymason]

If I had a time machine, I'd kick Baxter's arse for being so irresponsible in spouting such nonsense in the first place.

Id go back and buy tons of Microsoft when it was at $1. And put it all into Google later.

My best regards old friend...friend being the operative word.

[Archaic]

Hello. That's an interesting theory.
I have often wondered if it was specifically prostitutes he was after or if they were just easy targets.

Do you suppose he was opposed to them for moral reasons? I know that sounds odd, but is not without precedent. He might have been deeply religious in a funny sort of way.
LC

Hi, Lynn.
I think there could be a number of reasons why the Ripper hated prostitutes, and I believe it's important to remember that they don't all have to be what we would call "logical".

He might have seen prostitutes as loathsome & slovenly old alcoholics who were out on the street through their own fault, and/or as a sort of "walking plague" of venereal disease & vice. If he felt sexually inadequate or threatened in some way, by their very numbers, visibility, and "forwardness" he might have seen them as a constant reminder of this.

I believe that, to the Ripper, prostitutes also "represented" a combination of certain significant women in his life. This could include his mother or another relative, a love interest who rejected him, maybe even a school-teacher other figure who bullied him as a boy and whom he always thought of as "an old whore" whether she actually was one or not.

I don't personally believe the Ripper was a "religious nut", but I do think he believed that, through their own fault, prostitutes had no particular right to exist.
Of course they make the most convenient victims, too, through their habit of going off with strange men... I definitely think he felt that they deserved whatever he chose to do to them.

Some killers believe the prostitute actually "chooses" her fate by initiating contact in the hope of gaining a customer, and this belief helps them to overcome whatever tiny remnant of personal restraint they might still possess.

But I'm not sure how clear the Ripper's motivations were in his own mind; I doubt he analyzed himself and his behaviors the way we do.

I think he was literally seething with all these volatile elements churning & mixing within him, and then once the dam broke he experienced a very bizarre and intense catharsis which was addictive in itself.

Best regards, Archaic

[Howard Brown]

I don't personally believe the Ripper was a "religious nut", but I do think he believed that, through their own fault, prostitutes had no particular right to exist.
Of course they make the most convenient victims, too, through their habit of going off with strange men... I definitely think he felt that they deserved whatever he chose to do to them.--my sweetie,Archaic.

Archaic:

There's also another issue to consider...

There's really no way for any of us to determine if the Ripper began associating with prostitutes...say, with Mrs. Nichols, for want of some starting point. She may not have been the first pross he ever had relations with...even if in that horrendous way.

Therefore, he may well have done some minglin' before he did any manglin' with prosses and everything was A-ok certified Kosher. Something, a thing such as erectile dysfunction, may have been the final straw to set things in motion.

The reason I mention this...and its only an idea which isn't going to get much support....is that we obviously don't know whether he had any relations between the time he murdered Nichols and before Chapman or any possible relations with prosses after Dark Annie before running into either 2 or 1 woman on the 30th, 22 days later.

In short, Archaic....he may not necessarily been averse to prostitution... but only reacting when he couldn't hop into the proverbial saddle on certain occasions. Even I'm not convinced of this idea, but its an idea...

[lynn cates]

remorse

Hello. This seems analogous to the panhandlers of today.

I wonder if, on this hypothesis, "Jack" felt any remorse later?

LC

[perrymason]

Had there been a real Dr Stanley I could see hatred being a motivator, or something like that story of a man whose son gets a disease being caught by being with a prostitute...but I dont see hatred necessarily in many of the alledged Ripper murders....its certainly not evident in Liz Strides murder. Cutting Kates face might be anger, or what was done to Mary Jane might be....but the first 2 do not look like revenge anger or hatred..

Cheers

[Sam Flynn]

Cutting Kates face might be anger, or what was done to Mary Jane might be....but the first 2 do not look like revenge anger or hatred..

No - they look like a couple of pedicures gone horribly wrong

Seriously, though, Mike: if there's no appearance of anger or revenge in the first two murders, there isn't in the last two either - whoever might have been responsible for them.