motivation

[lynn cates]

Hello. Although there are many threads dealing with specific aspects of the Whitechapel killer's motivation, I'd like to see a listing with all possible motives.

Please discuss what you think the Ripper's motive/s in killing the canonical five was/were. (If you see some of the killings as the work of another, please include that. Eg, you may think that Stride was killed by a jealous boyfriend but the others were part of a conspiracy, etc.)

Here's a partial list of motives:

1. Misogyny.
2. Sexual gratification in killing.
3. Sexual gratification in knifing--killing merely expedient.
4. Organ harvesting.
5. Revenge against society.
6. Revenge against women
7. Revenge against mother.
8. Revenge against prostitutes (mother was one).
9. Revenge against prostitutes (got an std).
10. Proving superiority to others.
11. Playing a mental game with police.
12. Satanic ritual.
13. Masonic ritual.
14. Royal conspiracy.
15. Jewish conspiracy.
16. Anti-semitic conspiracy.
17. Arsenic poisoning.
18. To scare a significant other.
19. To do the Lord's work in punishing fallen women.
20. Other (please specify).

lynn cates

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I think a mixture of the first four.

I think he preferred the ripping aspect of it, but I wouldn't rule out him not liking the actual killing either, especially cutting a woman's throat.

I mean, I don't know the Victorians' usual method of murder (though come to think of it I think it probably was by cutting throats), but wouldn't it have been quicker to have snapped their necks or something? Especially if he was believed to have throttled a few of them anyway.

[lynn cates]

easy killing

Hello. I agree that there are easier methods of killing. Poison is much easier but difficult to get the appropriate situation. Perhaps buying them a drink?

Guns are fast but noisy.

If killing is the only motive, why not a quick carotid slash like in Stride's case? Much faster and less risky.

lynn cates

[The Grave Maurice]

Lynn,

Thanks very much for your list. I've been studying this case so long that I often forget to think about motivation. Personally, I like your ideas numbered 1, 2, 6, and 19.

I've never been sure about the organ harvesting aspect, but suspect that it might have been incidental.

[lynn cates]

suspects

Hello. Interesting observation.

It seems to me that certain suspects are capable of only certain motives. So, in your choices, I think you have helped narrow down the field a good deal.

lynn cates

[Sam Flynn]

Hi M&P,

I don't know the Victorians' usual method of murder, but wouldn't it have been quicker to have snapped their necks or something?

Snapping a neck doesn't quickly drain two or three points of blood from the body, making any subsequent evisceration slightly less messy than it might otherwise have been. Deep throat-cuts manage to achieve that quite well and, I suspect, are quicker to inflict than a snapped throat, and more likely to succeed. Whoosh - and it's all over, bar the voiceless gurgling.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Hi M&P,
Snapping a neck doesn't quickly drain two or three points of blood from the body, making any subsequent evisceration slightly less messy than it might otherwise have been. Deep throat-cuts manage to achieve that quite well and, I suspect, are quicker to inflict than a snapped throat, and more likely to succeed. Whoosh - and it's all over, bar the voiceless gurgling.

That's a really good point and one I completely overlooked. Probably because I got a mental image of him (especially in the Eddowes murder) strangling her with one hand, awkwardly trying to get the knife from his sleeve with the other, and trying to avoid cutting his self when slashing her throat all the while trying to avoid getting kicked in the balls and to keep her from screaming. But I highly doubt that's how he actually went about doing it haha.

At least with the Chapman murder it seems to have played out as though he throttled her till she was semi-conscious, lowering her to the ground and then cutting her throat (especially with the blood splashing up the fence).

I still think he might've liked cutting his victims throats though.

[Ashkenaz]

It's difficult to know where to start with all those possibilities you give. So I will start elsewhere.

I have just finished reading: Serial Killers - the growing menace, by Joel Norris. Some of his observations are useful. Quote "Most lust killers cannot have sex with a live functioning person. Henry Lee Lucas routinely killed his victims first, and then had sex with the different parts he had cut off the body". I think that this is the kind of person jtr was.

He also discusses the serial killer profile, and continues
thus "If the killer is especially savage with the bodies of his female victims, police should look for evidence of femine physical traits on the suspect. Does he have especially fine hair? Does he have an elongated or disproportionate body shape for a man? Are his features disproportionately delicate. This kind of hatred of the killers own physical traits usually translates iself into the most horrific forms of mutillation of the dead victim".

So, as we already suspected, here is a psychopath with a sadistic streak. Perhaps not a marked streak, but it was there none the less. I'm guessing that he enjoyed seeing the terror in his victims eyes. We may also perhaps consider a man with gender identity issues. Or at least a loathing of his femaleness, and the scorn this presumably elicted from some contemporary men.

[lynn cates]

physical traits

Hello! That is very interesting. Although there seemed to be no outward sign of sexual activity (perhaps the signs were missed?) on the victims, that does not preclude his having a sexual thrill during the act of mutilating.

Do you think the suggested physical traits fit any of the named suspects?

LC

[Ashkenaz]

Hello! That is very interesting. Although there seemed to be no outward sign of sexual activity (perhaps the signs were missed?) on the victims

Hi Lynn, I don't think any sexual activity was missed at the scene, because probably non occured. The activity I believe, occured later, privately, once he had the body parts home.

that does not preclude his having a sexual thrill during the act of mutilating.

I'm guessing that yes, he got a thrill in the act of mutilation and the killing too. The big pay off for him, I think, was the sex/masterbation later, with the totems

Do you think the suggested physical traits fit any of the named suspects?

LC

I'm not sure. What is perhaps not even a blemish to us, might have been a huge thing for him. Just consider all the plastic surgery today. Many people seem unhappy with themselves.

Like many others I'm sure I have dismissed suspects, then read another book, then performed another U turn.

At present, I dismiss all the known suspects. jtr was probably interviewed by the police, but I dont think he was ever a main suspect.

I believe he was working class,poorly educated, but quite smart, and young enough to escape quickly.

Someone I know believes the perp was Tumblety. But Tumblety was 57 in 1888. It wasn't him in my opinion. Misogynist yes, but too old to evade capture in 1888. Just my thoughts

[lynn cates]

organs for sexual fixation

Hello! Organs for sexual fixation is a fascinating theory! In the Nichols and Stride cases do you think that he was he able to substitute, say, the fantasy for the organs?

LC

[perrymason]

Hi Lynn,

For me there is evidence that within the Canonical Group alone there are likely different motivations for killing ....so, a lone sexual serial killer of 5 or more isn't highest on my own probability list. More likely to me there is potential for Burke and Hare motivations with the first 2 murders, the first unsuccessful only due to the amateur choice of location for the attack. The next victims killer might have killed her in a failed robbery attempt, in anger, or in retribution for acts real or imagined, ..and the last victim attributed may have been killed by someone violently passionate about her, shown in the extremes.

So in terms of motivations that would be money....(verified story of reward money for uteri samples amounting to approx todays equivalent of 1500L Sterling...within a ghetto mentality),....an unpredictable eruption of uncontrolled anger, and love scorned or perceived betrayal.

So,.....you wonder..... whats the probable motivation for the 4th of the series? For me thats the trickiest one.

And I dont rule out "communication" as one possible motivation, nor "anarchy".

Whats to be made of 5 murders that have some different motivations being grouped under one elusive killer? Possibly that the killers reputation was used to hide similar acts within. Some acts that maybe were only similar in their "ends"...not the reasoning.

Cheers Lynn

[lynn cates]

different hands

Hello. Thanks for sharing that. I've read many of your posts and they seem quite restrained and thoughtful.

I have played with the possibility of multiple perpetrators and, although I don't like it, I am open to suggestions as I seek truth first and foremost.

How many of the C5 do you think were done by the same hand? I take it that perhaps you see 4 or 5 different hands?

LC

[perrymason]

Hello. Thanks for sharing that. I've read many of your posts and they seem quite restrained and thoughtful.

I have played with the possibility of multiple perpetrators and, although I don't like it, I am open to suggestions as I seek truth first and foremost.

How many of the C5 do you think were done by the same hand? I take it that perhaps you see 4 or 5 different hands?

LC

Hey Lynn,

I'm fortunate in that I can roughly quote someone who I feel is an impeccable source for an opinion on this issue, one of the worlds leading authorities, if not THE leading source, on the cases, people and places,... and decades of experience with the London Police....(I just happen to share the opinion) ......

..."he" said that he has never been personally satisfied that more than 2 or 3 of those murders were by the same man, based on what is known to date. To be frank, I dont recall him specifying which victims, but I believe his opinion is that the first 2 Canonicals were among the 2 or 3 Ripper victims. Mine is that perhaps Kate is the 3rd. Im not certain on his opinions on this matter so I cant speculate, and as I said, I dont recall him specifically naming victims. Sorry for the anonymity, but thats out of respect for privacy. But I can assure you it can be confirmed,...by at least Glenn Andersson from here, who was in on the posts when the opinion was requested by me and then offered. I dont want to speak for anyone else.

I believe in 1888 that there were Whitechapel Murderers that killed women like Ada, Emma and Martha, at least one nut who was making Torsos likely at home, and that a character who is called Jack the Ripper cut women open in the streets....but I also believe men killed knowing that any murder committed at a certain point in time could be hung on someone elses roster....because almost any murder during that time was, despite the absolute lack of actual hard evidence. I believe the murder in Millers Court may well fall under that umbrella, and I think Alice McKenzie does.

Cheers again Lynn

[perrymason]

Just a footnote on the Burke and Hare scenario I mentioned that may be applicable as motives for the first 2 murders....although it is not a well received idea among the most knowledgeable people I know regarding the cases, its one I do see potential for. There are suggestive factors.....

We have a confirmed story that a teaching hospital was indeed approached the previous year for samples of uteri to be sent with research papers to America, we have a system which restricted the cadavers available to the medical community to be used for dissection and teaching to those who willed their bodies to science and the wards of the state with no known family, like asylum inmates and convicted felons, we have an unprecedented requirement for cadavers for scientific and medical research during the LVP particularly in London, much of it to do with the reproductive aspects of humans....and we have 2 women, ... in the opinions of the medical authorities who first examined them,.... whose wounds seem to suggest that the killer perpetrated the crimes so as to obtain the organ only successfully taken from the second, Annie Chapman....

Needless to say, that motivation cannot be attributed with supporting evidence to the murders of Liz Stride, Kate Eddowes and Mary Jane Kelly.

I see that as a litmus test myself.

Cheers again