The Ripper's MO....

[DVV]

Yes again, Smezenen,
and at least, I wouldn't believe in a breakin by someone who didn't know Mary.

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

I don't and can't buy into Jack breaking into MJK's room a la From Hell. He wasn't that risky as to just help himself into people's homes to do his work, otherwise more of his murders would've been committed inside; I think it's far more likely (and more plausible) for him to have been invited in by Mary as a client.

... or as a friend, M&P, or as an ex-boyfriend...

Amitiés,
David

[Malcolm X]

we dont know that the table was in that postion; if JTR broke in, do we... the ripper might have moved it there to place his handywork on.

as said, a break in would be relatively quiet and Millers court likewise; especially at 4am...and waiting outside as per Hutch is the only way to achieve this successfully....that is, if he broke in.

my guess is that he was after a heart this time, because the Eddowes murder shows, his first interest in the thorax region...cut from neck to abdoman, removing the heart via the abdoman requires much more time than a kidney etc, plus going through the ribcage with only a knife is time consuming/very hard also, he therefore realised that his next murder had to be indoors....because out on the street he was already pushed for time and probably disturbed at the Eddowes murder anyway!

his M.O was progressing, and therefore the need for a much longer mutilation, this can only really be done indoors...

so i think this month long gap, is because it took that long to find a suitable victim that would be prepared to go indoors with him, or he was waiting for Kelly to be finally alone.. no friends staying and no Barnett either.

he might also have simply heard MARY singing as he strolled by, or been Blotchy face.

but an indoor murder ?.... yes, he almost definitely planned this in advance; because his M.O is progressing too far to mutilate on the busy streets anymore!

it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realise that's why he killed indoors...he made a hideous mess, yes he planned to! ....and this cant be done out on the street.

did JTR know M.Kelly ?......... no idea

[DVV]

he therefore realised that his next murder had to be indoors....
his M.O was progressing, and therefore the need for a much longer mutilation, this can only really be done indoors...


but an indoor murder ?.... yes, he almost definitely planned this in advance; because his M.O is progressing too far to mutilate on the busy streets anymore!

it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realise that's why he killed indoors...he made a hideous mess, yes he planned to! ....and this cant be done out on the street.

Agreed (with what I've quoted), Malcolm,

but then, why would he break in ?
It was far less risky to search for a prostitute who, just like Mary, used to bring her clients home.

Amitiés,
David

[Malcolm X]

Kelly might have invited JTR in...Blotchy Face... but i'm not happy about him launching a knife attack.... not when he's got 4 hours to strangle her, he'd have loads of opportunities to kill her...he's the chief suspect, no doubt about it; but this knife attack visions something completely different in my mind, it just dosn't feel like him at all.

[DVV]

Well, I hadn't Blotchy in mind, Malcolm.
I was saying that all your (good) points make a break-in highly unlikely.

Amitiés,
David

[Malcolm X]

Agreed (with what I've quoted), Malcolm,

but then, why would he break in ?
It was far less risky to search for a prostitute who, just like Mary, used to bring her clients home.

Amitiés,
David

well maybe he couldn't find another prostitute that would go indoors....... so he either already knew MARY.....or he heard a young drunk woman singing as he walked by earlier on... yes, strange but maybe!

but if he was intending to break in later on, i expect he knew Mary had a client in there and waited outside as per Hutch, for him to leave and for her to fall asleep and not go out again, this confirmed....he then left Dorset st at 3am and sneaked back at 4am

i'm off to bed now, i'll talk tomorrow

[DVV]

You're lucky. I'm off to work till 7.00.
At that time, the Victoria Home will be open.

[Malcolm X]

Well, I hadn't Blotchy in mind, Malcolm.
I was saying that all your (good) points make a break-in highly unlikely.

Amitiés,
David

a break in to me makes a hell of a lot of sense, especially if you vision it like i do; i dont vision anything else and i'm not being bias either, because i used to be a hardened Chapman believer... i used to think Hutch was nothing more than an innocent eyewitness... until certain things didn't make sense.. and it's not him lieing about being there either..... i sensed something else.......i sensed he was lieing about seeing Kelly, but was still there outside.

i could be completely wrong, but by God he feels so guilty... very strange

good night!

[andy.j]

the crime scenes of the Ripper still shock and have a wide open profile of what lay behind the mind this killer. in 1888 other crimes involved mutilation before the Ripper crimes, but there seems a personal contact, the word personal as we know is a term used in profiling today, the Ripper killings even today show a huge amount of personal intention. some people think otherwise and believe there is no thought behind the crimes.
there is a thought proccess behind these crimes, why in 1888 with no profiling or knowledge of serial killing types they new this was different than the other mutilations and other such horrible crimes, the met were not stupid in 1888 they new this was something different, they just did not have the experience in this type of crime. but even today, the personal mutilations tell of a complex individual and would take a team of experienced profilers to try and form some kind of background to the individual, and as we know profiling is a long shot and never 100%. we cant put a class to the Ripper, we cannot put him in a stereo type, we cant say what was the reason for his crimes, its only when we catch a serail killer we can unlock the mindset and learn more about a mental disease or frontal lobe damage or mother fiqure's or ones childhood experiences, and so on and so on. his modus operandi is not a straight forward action, it is not just mutilation, i think thats why we still are confused today because there is still a difference there even in the modern serial killer.

[Ben]

I did see somewhere a report from the police that stated no evidence of a break in.

A small point of clarification regarding to term "break-in", Smez.

I don't believe anything was actually "broken" or forced. I believe, instead, that the killer may have gained entry by pushing open a latched door. It was undoudtedly latched at 11:45pm, and it may well have remained so thereafter on account of Kelly's inebriation. There's certainly nothing "risky" about that when set against his earlier outdoor crimes, which are far more risky by virtue of their location. Obviously, I rule out the idea that he tried every door until one opened. Far more likely, he conducted some prior surveillance first, as other killers - notably Dennis Rader, Ted Bundy, and Robert Napper - have done, and sought the opportune moment to enter.

The flickering fire and the lamp facing room #13 would have illuminated the room to an extent.

Best regards,
Ben

[richardnunweek]

Hi Guys,
Why is it we are still trying night time scenerios, when we all know that 1888 medical opinions on T.O.D are extremely inaccurate.
We have one major witness in Caroline Maxwell, who swore on oath that she spoke to the deseased at 815am on the morning of the ninth, she was adamant that she saw her, she even addressed her by name at their encounter, yet we dismiss her evidence as 'Mistaken' even though the facts related to the incident prove otherwise.
If one takes that sighting as accurate, and the doctors mistaken, we have one vital sighting, that being Maxwells market porter.
He would therefore be the last male seen with Mary Kelly, and would be the first suspect one would have to eliminate.
My scenerio.
Kelly is alive during daylight, Blotchy face, and Astracan [ if they ever existed] have long gone, the last proberly leaving kellys room around 615am, mary is alive but a bit fragile, but she nevertheless encounters a punter outside Ringers around 845am, when Maxwell spots her for the second time.
He shows intrest in business, and kelly has no reason to feel in any danger, after all it is broad daylight, many people are around, so she invites him back to her room, but they do not walk together....
Mary suggests to him that it would be better if she went back first to her room, as she could not only plan for his arrival, but she did not want her nosey landlord to see her soliciting.
The man agrees to this , it would suit his plans also.
'I live just up the road luv, down millers court passage, second door on the right, come straight in, i will be waiting, the door will be open.'
And that folks is what happened, mary undresses down to her chemise, the man enters, and that incident becomes history,
incidently the fire was lit by Mary, you dont place wet boots by a unlit fire, she proberly was boiling water just prior to the mans arrival , hense the melted kettle.
No breaking and entering, just a invite to a vicious killer.
Regards Richard.

[Malcolm X]

do you realise Richard, how cazy a morning mutilation would be in busy Millers court, with many of her neighbours hanging around outside her window; gossiping away whilst using the water pump.... it would be totally crazy, plus he has to leave her room without being seen by anybody and also, a resident might have knocked on her front door....you only have to imagine busy Millers court/dorset st in the morning, to realise how rediculous a morning mutilation is.

this is one of the silliest posts that i've ever read, but it keeps cropping up every 4 months or so

[perrymason]

Hi again all,

I would agree with the contentions that a break in, if while Mary was asleep in bed, is less likely. For one, the latch method although easy to comprehend for us was not clearly that way for the officers in the courtyard....there is not one record of anyone stepping forward to halt McCarthy when he forces the door open because he had noticed a better means of access. Funny thing is, McCarthy should have been one of the few people that knew that trick existed and that it was needed with the key gone missing.

And the only example of possible noise from Marys room after 1:15am "ish", is perhaps some noise from the courtyard that stirs Diddles to pass over Elizabeth's neck and face upstairs. To me this makes perfect sense, because when EP is awakened she hears a voice as "from the court"...as does Sarah Lewis....at the same time.

That voice is followed by silence,....almost positively excluding an attack that commences at the door.

So.....where does that leave us?

Hows this..........Marys answers a tap on the window or door, exclaims something when she opens the door, and then closes it and goes back to bed. But with an invited guest in the room. He doesnt attack her right away....we have no sound evidence to that effect, so the man is allowed to arrive and then to be in Marys room with her permission at around 3:45am...while she is almost naked, and was sleeping. She nods off again, with her back facing the windows, knees tucked.....and when she is dozing he attacks her with a knife, perhaps covering her face with a sheet....maybe to prevent him having to see her expressions. If he starts with a throat slit when her back is turned, she might not be able to get a sound out. And he would have his weight on her, while she is on her right side, pinning her. When she is dying and stopped her struggles, he flips her on her back, thereby placing her approximately in the middle of the bed, with her legs akimbo, knees bent.

I think that works with almost all the accepted evidence...whether it happened that way is unprovable however.

One thing is certain though if some variation of that scenario occurred....Mary knew her killer well.

Best regards all.

[Malcolm X]

you see, the idea of this post was for me to dismiss the break in theory...that's why i kept saying...why did JTR attack her with a knife, i was actually trying to strenghten the case for another suspect; rather than Hutch.

i've read some reasons why he might've done so (if Blotchy) but none of them convince me enough.... Mary had indeed bruises to the neck, yes he did eventually strangle her, but evidence points strongly towards the initial attack being with a knife.

this is a switch in M.O, that can only be explained by.....something seriously went wrong, she looks like she was attacked by a total stranger, rather than somebody who had been inside with her from 15mins to 4 hours.

the killer seems to be in a rage too... if this killer was Blotchy/ a later man invited in..(but not Hutch), my guess is he knew her too well and he simply lost his temper, but he's still JTR.

if not, this is probably a quiet break in and she woke up!

my suspicion is focused on this progression in M.O, highlighted by his interest in Eddowes thorax.... i think he was searching for a month, for a suitable indoors victim....because what he had planned; would take too long to do outdoors.

Mary's biggest mistake was to get blind drunk that night, because drunk girls are damned noisey; especially singing....you can here them from flipping miles away...the sound would be bouncing off the walls, all the way down Dorset st.