The Ripper's MO....

[smezenen]

you cant miss the broken window, especially if he was lurking around millers court earlier in, when her light was still on, plus the wall lamp would've still been on too, he might've walked down there for a quick look and retreated back to dorset st.

if the Ripper was Hutch, then yes indeed he was seen. .... we're talking about stuff here that's already been discussed in much detail on Hutch threads....i'm not repeating my theories on Hutch here again.

seeing her at range first, your logic baffles me, of course he didn't attack her from 4 to 5 feet away, he moved in at high speed from being seen at that range and then attacked...knife already in hand, i would've thought this was fairly obvious..... how often do i have to keep saying this.

strangling her first as you suggest, failing and going for his knife, means that one of his hands would've been away from his victim...i think MARY would've screamed and fought back far more, because one hand holding a victim as young as her, wouldn't have been enough to subdue a crazed woman fighting for her life, she'd be bashing him around the head, clawing at his face, screaming at him....he'd certainly get seriously ruffled up and the neighbours would definitely hear all of this...because if this had happened, he'd need to get out of her room pretty fast, he's blown it. but no, we hear a semi muffled shout of ``oh murder`` only....

again, i see no reason why he didn't break in, and i see no reason why Blotchy should attack MARY with a knife first

And you show no evidence that he did break in. You try to use the cuts to the sheet and defensive wounds to prove she she saw him at range and i say those are not evidence of an attack that started at range.

Ive seen the pictures of the broken window. if he used it to gain entry then he knew about it before he showed up at millers couirt that night. He didnt hage around or he would have been seen there where to many people out and about. there is a mention or carmen dressing horses in the nearby streets as early as 5 AM there is tesimony of people leving the court for work in the markets from 3 AM on.

the reason you hear on NOT muffeled scream of oh murder is becouse he had to leave his choke and go for the knife its logic it makes sence a break in is risky not logical breaks MO is not supported by any evidence and doesnt make sence

[Ben]

Hi Smez,

He didn't need the window to gain entry. He could have used the door if the spring-lock was left on the latch, as it clearly was at 11:45pm at the very earliest. As for hanging around and being seen, well, we know that someone did hang around and was seen. No problem here either, since the likihood is that he was seen "hanging around" with his intended victim at earlier crime venues. That's obviously more "risky" than being seen alone.

I really don't see why the break-in option is any more risky than the killer-client alternative. If anything, the reverse makes better sense, considering that a sleeping victim is easier to subdue quietly than a "wideawake" one.

[smezenen]

I think both you and smezenen better keep in mind that Mary was attacked while resisting,...with the knife. There is no evidence she was subdued first....and evidence that does suggest she was not.

DR Thomas Bond reports in the post mortum;

The neck was cut through the skin and other tissues right down to the vertebrae, the fifth and sixth being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis. The air passage was cut at the lower part of the larynx through the cricoid cartilage.

Ecchymosis in laymans terms is bruising and is evidence that she may have been choked.

[smezenen]

i understand fully, members on this thread doubting this, but you need to explain to me :-
cut sheets, defensive wounds and a scream and as yet i haven't read a really good explanation[/B]

OK Malcolm here it is again supported by the evidence, witness testimony, and doctors assesments.


If we disregard the testimony of George Hutchinson as most believe it to be fake, and also Caroline Maxwell and Maurice Lewis bcouse we know she was dead at the times they give for seeing her, then there are no confirmed sightings of MJK after Mary Ann Cox sees her with Blotchy at 1145. Evidence says she ate a meal of fish and potatoes sometime between 1145 and 1AM. We have one doctor placing the time of death as early as 1AM.

Assumtions for this mind exercise:
1 Blotchy is Jack
2 time of death is 1AM
3 All testimony of hearing or seing MJK after 1145 is fancy.

The setting;
MJK meets Jack at the Britannia where she solicites him. He accepts and she takes him home. This is a new environment and he hasn’t really planned for it. They share a meal and a pail of beer between 1145 and lets say 1230, during this time Jack is trying to hastily plan his move. They finish dinner, MJK takes her boots of places them by the fire. She undresses and folds her cloths placing them on a chair. Jack has had time to plan and knows he doesn’t have to rush with this one he can savor it so he is watchs her go about undressing. She gets into bed and pulls the sheet up under her neck to ward of the chill, then beckons for him to join her.

Scenario 1
He moves toward the bed and as he gets close he lunges for her placing his hands around her throat. The sheets are in the way so his grip is slipping, she is struggling and manages to hit him a few times. Jack realizes he will have to put her down faster and with one hand reaches for his knife. He manages to keep one hand around her throat long enough to get the knife out but as he tries to cut her she pushes the knife away receiving cuts to her hands. Jacks second attemp has more result cutting the sheet and her throat. Its about 1AM the earliest time of death given by doctor Thomas Bond.

Scenario 2
He moves over and sits on the edge of the bed pretending to bend over to take his shoes off he draws his knife then turns and lunges at MJK cutting wildly at her throat. MJK has time to throw up her hands but fails to stop the attack. Its about 1AM the earliest time of death given by doctor Thomas Bond.

Either scenario works and there is no break-in.
Actually I like number 2 the best which fits with your theory that his attack lead with the knife.

Im not trying to prove weatrher he started with the knife or the choke im just saying that a break-in wasnt necesary and doesnt fit the know evidence.

[perrymason]

DR Thomas Bond reports in the post mortum;

The neck was cut through the skin and other tissues right down to the vertebrae, the fifth and sixth being deeply notched. The skin cuts in the front of the neck showed distinct ecchymosis. The air passage was cut at the lower part of the larynx through the cricoid cartilage.

Ecchymosis in laymans terms is bruising and is evidence that she may have been choked.

Hi smezenen,

I realize that evidence is there,....but it doesnt supersede the defense wounds evidence, and that suggests she wasnt unable to resist....as it seems was the case with Polly, Annie and Kate. All were thought to be semi unconscious or fully so before the throat cut. Which to me at least implies he used to hands to accomplish that. So, no knife until they were physically defeated.

Thats not the evidence Marys left arm suggests.

On the entry method Ben, as you say, he could have pushed the door and found it open, he could have knocked lightly on the window or door, he could have known about the pane-latch method....but its unlikely he learned of the pane method while assessing his entry. The curtains would be closed as Mary Ann indicated earlier, and there would be no light inside the room to assist his seeing this opportunity for the first time. We seem to be asked to believe that of all the men in that court from 11:15 to 1:30pm, not one raised the idea that it wasnt necessary to force the door open, as the latch-pane method was present.

In terms of MO though...as the thread is really about, him seeking victims where they live is definitely a departure from his established patterns,... regardless of how he gets into the room. Even Liz at least falls under that same basic umbrella....out after midnight alone in the East End, known to solicit, known to have no bed that night, known to be near a supposedly empty yard just before she is found dead inside it, might have been killed while in the process of solicitation. And she is a suspect case.

The MO departure from those 4 to Mary Kelly needs a whole lotta splainin before I can see a logical progression of that same killer.

I see someone in her life killing her as easily as I see Liz being offed by a drunk she insulted perhaps.

Cheers Ben, smezenen... all the best as always.

[Ben]

Either scenario works and there is no break-in

But neither scenario precludes a break-in, Smez, and even if they did, the fact that there are other possible scenarios that don't include a break in doesn't decrease the likelihood of the break-in scenario being the correct one.

[DVV]

I see someone in her life killing her

And so do I, Mike.
Couldn't miss this opportunity to agree with you!

Amitiés,
David

[smezenen]

But neither scenario precludes a break-in, Smez, and even if they did, the fact that there are other possible scenarios that don't include a break in doesn't decrease the likelihood of the break-in scenario being the correct one.

The police that investigated the crime either didnt find any evidence to sugest a breakin or they grossly neglected their duty to report such information. What they did report says that MJK invited her killer in. I for one refuse to alter what the contempory investigators reported.
Thats not to say that a break could not have occured, and if you read my earlier posts you will see that i did agree it as a possibility. however I disagree that it is the most possible.

I dont believe Jack departed from the MO as much as we are making out. I think he meet her outside and would haved followed patern to the letter but she threw him off and invited him in. He tried to choke her but from the front instead of the back. he underestimated the dificulty of a front choke and it went bad. he had to use his knife before he was ready. everything after that follows his MO.

[smezenen]

I realize that evidence is there,....but it doesnt supersede the defense wounds evidence, and that suggests she wasnt unable to resist....as it seems was the case with Polly, Annie and Kate. All were thought to be semi unconscious or fully so before the throat cut. Which to me at least implies he used to hands to accomplish that. So, no knife until they were physically defeated.

Hello Michael,
I didnt mean to infer that it superseded the defensive wounds. I walked thru a choking experiment with Malcolm in a post above if you care to read it. what i am putting forth is that Jack may have tried to choke her, but from the front this time instead of from behind. that creates a few difficulties for him. Its alot harder to choke from the front, 1- it takes more strenght 2- it takes alot longer 3-you are vulnerable to counter attack. she may have been able to break his initial choke hold and thats why he went for the knife. and then of course there is also the strong possibility that Jack knew it was harder and went straight for the knife to save himself the trouble. I dont know why that thought didnt occure to me before.

[FrankO]

Id like to address the above If I may.

Hi Mike,

Of course you may.

The idea that Polly's wounds were made specifically to obtain internal organs and the failure to do so drove him into a backyard for the next kill was Wynne Baxter's, at Polly's Inquest. Using the cumulative data that he had access to since Polly's and Annie's murders.

Thanks for the summation. I couldn't find it, because I was looking for it in the information regarding Chapman's case. It was indeed Baxter who suggested that. As it was Phillips who more or less pointed a finger at his own profession as a result of Chapman's extraction of her uterus and suggested that getting the uterus was the actual object of the 'operation'.

I disagree with the premise raised that any specific cutting he does Postmortem belongs in the MO category.

I don't agree either. Even the cutting of the throat may not have been purely MO.

So, Thats 3 of 5 being almost identical murders. That tells me that the ONLY way its Jack that kills Liz and Mary is if he changes his MO on each of those two murders. Thats well within "possible", sure.....but is it probable and logical when we can see clearly he kills 3 of the alleged Group in the same way? From the first to the 4th?

As to Stride, I agree. I see little reason why he would follow a different MO while he was doing his 'thing' out in the streets. Unless, of course, his intended victim reacted differently from the others.

As to MJK, I can see why and how his MO could have been different, certainly when he wanted to attack her while she was sleeping. Regardless of whether he ended up in MJK's room because he had actually been looking for a victim with a room of her own or not, there's every chance that things with this vicitm didn't go as he was used to with the others.

After all, out in the streets prostitutes would service their clients standing up and only by lifting their skirts, which gave him the perfect opportunity to strike when she expected him to deliver his end of the deal. But in MJK's room business would logically have been done lying down, on her bed. So the 'deal' simply didn't unfold as he was used to, opening up the very real possibility that the MO would not play out as before.

Furthermore, MO isn't as important to the killer as his signature. Because he's obviously not driven by the MO, but by what's behind the signature. So even though the MO in MJK's case was different, that doesn't make it logical or probable that it wasn't Jack who killed her. Regardless of whichever victim he did approach and kill in the same way.

All the best, Mike!
Frank

[Ben]

What they did report says that MJK invited her killer in.

Are we sure about that, Smez?

I wasn't aware that the police expressed a view on the subject one way or the other. Like you, I don't believe the killer departed significantly from his "MO" either, but then a hypothetical break-in wouldn't amount to a radical "MO" change.

[smezenen]

Take a look at the excelent diagrams Steve has done on the MJK1 & MJK3 camera positions thread they show the layout of the room. thw door opens into the middle of the room towards the bed. There is a table between the door and the bed.

If Jack broke in he would have to go around the door and the table before he got to the bed. If the squeeking of the door woke MJK as Malcolm sugested then she had plenty of time to scream her bloody head off. he would not have been able to open the door go around the door and around the table to perform the lightning quick attack sugested by a break in.

[DVV]

If Jack broke in he would have to go around the door and the table before he got to the bed. If the squeeking of the door woke MJK as Malcolm sugested then she had plenty of time to scream her bloody head off. he would not have been able to open the door go around the door and around the table to perform the lightning quick attack sugested by a break in.

I tend to agree, Smezenen.
especially since the room must have been dark.
But just like Ben, I wasn't aware of any police theory about how the killer got in.

Amitiés,
David

[smezenen]

But just like Ben, I wasn't aware of any firm theory about how the killer got in.

I did see somewhere a report from the police that stated no evidence of a break in. Ill be darned if I can locate it now so I am unable to defend my statement as such.

I will agree that a break in is a possibility but with the layout of the room, the amount of people coming and going that night, the fact that we know she invited at least one person into her room, its an extreamy thin possibility. I think its way to much of a risk for Jack to break in when he could have found another victim in a dark street like the rest.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

I don't and can't buy into Jack breaking into MJK's room a la From Hell. He wasn't that risky as to just help himself into people's homes to do his work, otherwise more of his murders would've been committed inside; I think it's far more likely (and more plausible) for him to have been invited in by Mary as a client.