The Ripper's MO....

[smezenen]

General point: Can we please not discuss "signature" issues on this "MO" thread?

For clarity: "Signature" = what happened from the point that he killed his victims and onwards; "MO" = what he might have done before he killed his victims. This thread is about the latter.

Ta!

(The reason I started this one in the first place was because "MO" discussions had started taking over a "signature" thread!)

Sam,
I quite disagree with the signature having to be after the kill. Take Ted Bundy for instance his "signature" was to feign being in need of help in order to get close to a young women.
his variouse M.O.s included rape, biting ,cutting, stabing, bludgeoning, shooting, beheading.

[smezenen]

in adition, if JTR had got out of bed, changed and then attacked her, then this too doesn't make sense, (if she was awake) unless he was a total devil may care crazed fool, (thin walls, neighbours all around to hear her screaming etc etc), remember, the facts seem to show that this attack was with his knife in hand.


the obvious thing for any intelligent person to do, is to strangle her while in bed in a romantic embrace, dead easy, quick and silent too.

we have one other glaring problem and this is the biggest of all...how did Kelly know that JTR was about to attack her, if he was already in the room........[B]unless the fire was still on and i bet you it wasn't at 4am...you would not see an attack comming, not a hope in hell...you would hardly be able to see him, especially with tired boozed up eyes

i bet you 20 million quid that he broke in and she woke up, this explains perfectly; him cocking up this murder and thus a shift in his primary M.O ( which is near perfection already)

Malcolm,
I address the bold areas in order:

1-thin walls, neighbors, the number of people that claim to have been hanging around that area that night are all reasons I personally would not attempt to break into the first room on the right just inside the courtyard. Someone was more likely to see that and be suspicious than hearing a few noises coming from the room itself.

2-yes the most intelligent thing to do is strangle her while in a lovers embrace.

3-she need not know of the attack beforehand if she was somehow able to break the choke hold and call out "oh murder"

4- Yes Jack botched this job but a break in seems to me more risky than being invited in.

I believe he botched the job while choking her. If he is accustomed to choking from behind and is now forced by circumstance to choke from the front he may not have taken into consideration that it takes longer and requires much more strength to choke from the front. You are also exposed to counter blows when you choke from the front as opposed to being almost shielded by your victim’s body from the rear.

Try a little experiment with a friend. (make sure it’s a good friend that trusts you)
Stand behind them, wrap your right arm around their throat so your bicep is against the right carotid artery and your forearm is against the left carotid artery, dont worry about the laranx or the front of the neck to much but your arm should be tight against it all the way around, reach all the way around and with your right hand grab hold of the lapel of your shirt or jacket (it works better with a good sturdy jacket on) and hold on tight. At the same time put your left arm over your right hand and behind the head, grad the sleeve of your right arm as far forward as you can, rotate the left forearm forward just a little. That’s enough to choke…. ask your friend to try to hit you. any blows that he or she lands are light and uneffective.... (Now let go of your friend)…..

The next step if you want to kill fast (do not do this with your friend) is to sit down while holding your victim in this way and you will l put enough pressure to the choke to induce unconsciousness in about 5-10 seconds this hold will also have the added effect of silencing the victim (except the sounds of flailing arms and legs). with my background in hand to hand combat and taking into consideration the marks described in the post mortums it is my opinion that he used a simular choke method on Polly, Annie, Lizzy(also partialy bothced), and Catherine. From behind with the whole arm not in front with a hand choke is more powerfull and faster.
Now that last part with the same good friend, from the front put your hands around their throat and squeeze as hard as you can. I bet you those same 20 million quid you get a fist in the jaw or a knee in the groin. Add in that the neck may be slippery from sweat and you can see a choke from the front is much more difficult than from the rear.

[Monty]

Sam,
I quite disagree with the signature having to be after the kill. Take Ted Bundy for instance his "signature" was to feign being in need of help in order to get close to a young women.
his variouse M.O.s included rape, biting ,cutting, stabing, bludgeoning, shooting, beheading.

The feigning of helplessness (not sure if thats a word but it is now) is MO. The way Bundy operated, a means to an end.

Signatures are not always present, but when they are they usually remain the same....but thats for another thread.

Apologies Gareth.

Monty

[smezenen]

sorry Monte i was quoting from another website about bundy that says "his signature is to feign being in need of help in order to get close to a young women"

since there is confusion on my part, and others too, I have looked up a definition for us here it is coppied from http://ezinearticles.com/?Criminal-F...ions&id=652849

Modus operandi, aka MO, or method of operation, refers to the tools and techniques that a crook uses to commit a crime. This concept is very ancient. In fact, this concept dates back 19th century England when a police constable, Major L.W. Atcherley of the West Riding Yorkshire Constabulary of England, developed a 10-point system for identifying a perpetrator's MO. Scotland Yard later incorporated many of his techniques that are still in use today.

The following factors are considered when identifying a perpetrator's MO:
Place of the crime
Point of entry
Method of entry
Tools used during the criminal act
Kinds of objects removed from the scene of a crime
Time of day when the crime occurred
The culprit's alibi
The culprit's accomplices
Mode of transportation to and from the scene
Unusual characteristics of the crime, such as killing the house cat or leaving behind a note or object to challenge police

All these factors address the culprit's method of doing things. He finds it necessary to do these things as part of committing the crime.

An MO may evolve over time as the perpetrator finds better ways to commit murder or other kinds of crimes. This may include changing his mode of entry, ploy, disguise, or the time when the attacks occur. He will modify his methods to become more effective and help him avoid being detected.

On the flipside of an MO, a signature refers to an act that has nothing to do with completing the crime or getting away with it. Signatures are important to the perpetrator in a personal way. Torturing the victim, repeatedly stabbing the victim, postmortem mutilation, and the removing of souvenirs or trophies are examples of signatures. These actions are motivated by a killer's fantasies and psychological needs.

[Christine]

we dont know that JTR was incapable of normal sex, he was interested in mutilations/organ collections only, his murders aren't sex related at all, he kills quickly and efficiently and shows no signs of sexual sadism, or over the top violence/ rage...as a killer he's actually quite compassionate, death comes quickly....he is nothing like Bundy/ sutcliffe.

Sam these threads are M.O related, very much so it's virtually impossible to mention M.O without being deviated onto other issues, your priority might be better spent controlling that ``1911 census thread``, because that thread is totally out of control and spoiling this forum!..... becaue on other forums, that thread would be locked by now

The overwhelming majority of mutilation killings are motivated by uncontrollable sexual urges and lead to sexual excitement, and the killer is usually incapable of normal sexual relations. This is just statistics and doesn't even touch on the psychological profiling. It doesn't necessarily imply sadism, just that he was sexually aroused by what he was doing and that he lacked a normal level of control.

Anyhow, I see many obvious signs of over the top rage and violence. You'd be hard pressed to find any act more violent and angry than this.

[Malcolm X]

yes the Signature/ M.O is confusing...so the mutilations/ organ removal are the signatures...everything else the M.O.

this means that JTR's signature is present in all murders except Tabrum and Stride..as is his M.O, which varies the most (obviously) with Kelly.

i dont trust anybody well enough to have them ``play`` strangle me, so i'll agree with what you say

as for the breaking in theory :- 4am is very late at night and if the Ripper was stalking outside, he'd know exactly how quiet it was in Millers court... he has to stalk outside for ages anyway, to make sure that Kelly is finally alone, not going out again and has fallen into a deep sleep.

but did she invite JTR in? unfortunately we dont know; all i can say is that he cocked up killing her, because she saw him attacking her at range, whilst in bed...true you're quite right, he couldn't get behind her to strangle her, but to strangle her is still quite easy, especially if he was in bed with her/ about to leave.

she had defensive knife cut wounds/slashed bed sheet, this tells me, with a modification to my earlier posts due to feedback here, that:-

1....she saw him attacking at range, knife in view, whilst in bed.... nothing more is known

2...he made a mess of killing her and was unable to strange her effectively first

the conclusion i have is :- she was shocked to see him, either in her room or launching an attack, he was also; not in bed with her but fully dressed.

1....Did kelly invite JTR in, get undressed and get into bed.......and then he attacked

2....Did JTR launch an attack as he was about to leave, after having sex with her.

3....Did JTR break in at 4am, knife in hand.

4....was this killer quite young, it seems so

JTR shows no interest in sex with the other victims, he kills quickly/efficiently....but Kelly was no ugly hag like all the others....Kelly was over on the right hand side of the bed, which tells me that someone was once on the left hand side, or somebody that left her an hour ago.

it's easy to strangle her if she invited him in; because she's the lead and he's walking behind her.....but no, this theory is totally blown to hell, because she was already in bed.

she saw him attacking at range, knife in view, whilst in bed.... nothing more is known ...yes i'm afraid so.

[Malcolm X]

the common sense answer is :-

he attacked her after sex and whilst about to leave...he wasn't thinking correctly, because strangling her in bed is the easiest......good grief, just wake up beside her whilst she is still fast asleep and strangle her..how thick is this killer, because Mary is as vulnerable as a new born baby whilst asleep, we all are

i'm sorry none of this makes sense at all...NONE OF IT, i'm not satisfied with any of this one bit.... i think he broke in.

change in M.O is a huge clue, because the only time he has to change his tactics, is if he has to launch a sudden attack....but if invited in, all calm and relaxed, he can still utilise his M.O as per Eddowes.........no no no no he cant; because Mary was already in bed and suddenly shocked.............JTR broke in, i'm convinced he did.

i'm sorry for rabbiting on, i get a bit overenthusiastic sometimes!

[smezenen]

Malcolm
All good arguments friend. They make your theory possible, but given the known activity in and around millers court that morning I still believe a break in to be too risky and unpracticle. There where too many people coming and going thru out the night for Jack to have waited around staking the place out, also risky behavior becouse unless he lives there, he is out of place and would have taken the interest of someone who did. here is a list of known residents and visiters and the times they came and went.

Caroline Maxwell and husband, residents

Catherine Pickett and husband, resident heard singing at 1230 left for market at 730AM

Elizabeth Prater resident testimony puts her in millers court at 9pm then again 1-1;30 am, then at 530am and again at 11am

George Hutchinson saw kelly at 2 am and followed her and a man back to #13 Millers Court where he watched her residence until 2:45

Julia Venturney resident close neighbor

Lizzie Albrook resident left kellys room at 8PM

Maria Harvey left kellys room at 6:55pm

Mary Ann Cox resident returned home at 11:45 went out at 12 returned at 1 went out a few minutes later returnedd at 3AM testified that she heard men leaving for work in the marketwork during the morning but that the one leaving at 6:15 am would have been to late for the market.

Maurice Lewis resident

Sarah Lewis resident returned home at 2:30

so from that list we can place someone out of doors in the court at the following times

6:55pm, 8PM, 9PM, 1145PM, 12AM, 1AM TO 1:30 AM, 2AM TO 2:45 AM, 3AM, 5:30am

Thats a fairly busy courtyard even with a 1 hour gap between 3Am and the 4AM scream (during which time unknown men where leaving for work) its just too risky to break in.

The man seen going into kellys room at 2AM is the most logical choice for the killer, here is a scenario that fits that theory.

They enter the room she sings for him for a bit . Jacks a bit nervouse maybe becouse of the change in venue. He patiently waits, thinking of what he will later do, savoring the moment as it where. They undress, she folds her cloths and places them on a chair he places his on the table next to the bed. (this puts the knife, still concealed within reach) they have sex, getting sweaty in the process, afterwards she passes out (or not either way no difference), Jack still in the buff) begins his attack by trying to choke her from the front but this only wakes her and she fights back, he cant get a good grip on her throat becouse of the sweat she starts to call out "Oh murder", Jack cant have her screaming so he grabs the knife and slashes at the throat.

[Malcolm X]

no your theory doesn't feel right at all, certainly not her screaming and then him turning around to get his knife out...it's too heavy and clumsy, think more of a lightning fast attack that she sees at range, from say 4 to 5 ft away...knife in hand....think of that slashed bed sheet, defensive wounds, cry of ``oh murder``

now then, with no knife in his hand...you'd still have her screaming, but no slashes to sheet or defensive wounds......he'd punch her in the face etc and then strangle her....

to me, he failed to strangle her like this, because he had the knife already in his hand and she saw him attacking, he used it wildly, this didn't work because of her defensive wounds...he DROPPED IT on purpose and then strangled her

the Hutch statement is a load of twaddle, i'm a strong believer that he made it all up or he stalked outside as JTR..

Kelly was singing before 2am...not after, and the LA DI DA suspect is clearly fabricated, there is no way Hutch saw that character, we've discussed this in too much detail in the past and i'm not going over it again... i'm totally fixed with regards to this, i have exactly the same views as Ben.

the Ripper for me is either Blotchy face or Hutch...LA DI DA (maybe Chapman) is distinctly some way off in 3rd place..

Hutch could easily have broken in at 4am, him lurking outside are the perfect tactics required to achieve this, yes there's a few people around but it would only take 5 mins to get in.

we're way off topic here....so lets please stick to his attack M.O on this thread.

because in a controlled mutilation like this, you'd see no slashed bed sheet, even the mutilated face wouldn't damage the sheet like this.....

1...strangle her while in bed, with her either awake or asleep
2...strangle her, a friendly goodbye kiss.....about to leave

because if JTR was Blotchy, then he advanced on her, slashed at her.... it looks like in a rage too, for the first time ever. if Blotchy killed her like this, then it looks like Kelly detected his true nature, or said something insulting to him, and he flew into a rage!

because i cannot see throughout the whole evening, any opportunity for not being able to strangle Kelly like Eddowes... he was in there too long...but no he advanced on her with a knife, while she was in bed....this is not the Rippers primary M.O.

Smezenen, come up with another idea for JTR's attack, but please bear in mind her defensive cuts, slashed bedsheet...scream...already in bed, i'm looking for somebody that can detect something different here; something i'm missing....i'm all ears

[smezenen]

[QUOTE=Malcolm X;84798]
Hutch could easily have broken in at 4am, him lurking outside are the perfect tactics required to achieve this, yes there's a few people around but it would only take 5 mins to get in.
[QUOTE]

He would have made a lot of noise in that 5 minutes. have you Ever tried to break into a house, its a noisy afair. And for it to ba a lightning raid he would have made more noise. This is from first hand experience. I have conducted raid on houses its noisy and people hear it. So taht leaves a stealthy aproach to brreaking in and more chance that she will hear him too early and raise the alarm. Then there where people coming and going to work Mayy Ann Cox testifies to hearing people leaving for work in the markets from 3 AM on. (She also testified to hearing MJK singing at 3 AM when she returned home). So for your theory to work Jack had to stake the place out to find a time that noone is around. but unless he lived there he might draw the attention of someone who did. Thats too risky for Jack. what ever you think about Jack he is a cunning bastard and doesnt take big risks thats also part of his MO. I agree that its possible for him to have broken in but only becouse there is no inconclusive proof that its not possible. and as you say it feels too heavy and its too wrong and to risky.

[Sam Flynn]

Sam,
I quite disagree with the signature having to be after the kill. Take Ted Bundy for instance his "signature" was to feign being in need of help in order to get close to a young women.

That was Bundy's modus operandi, or "method of working", Smez. The signature comprises the more-or-less characteristic traces that a killer may leave behind on, or around, the bodies of his victims.

In the case of the Ripper, as it turns out, the "MO" will always be largely unknown to us - because we weren't there to see how he really "ensnared" his victims. It's rather different with the "signature", because at least we have the details of the mutilations as permanent evidence of what he left behind.

That's another good reason why it's perfectly legitimate, indeed advisable, to treat discussions about the MO entirely separately from discussions about the signature. They are two fundamentally different things.

[smezenen]

That was Bundy's modus operandi, or "method of working", Smez. The signature comprises the more-or-less characteristic traces that a killer may leave behind on, or around, the bodies of his victims.

In the case of the Ripper, as it turns out, the "MO" will always be largely unknown to us - because we weren't there to see how he really "ensnared" his victims. It's rather different with the "signature", because at least we have the details of the mutilations as permanent evidence of what he left behind.

That's another good reason why it's perfectly legitimate, indeed advisable, to treat discussions about the MO entirely separately from discussions about the signature. They are two fundamentally different things.

Sam,
I copied that from the official police report where it is listed as the "signature" however you are correct and if you read down a few post from the original I did acknowledge that.
I also posted a book definition of both MO and signature, once again coppied, this time from my old criminology testbook. As you see from the definitions of both they are sometimes hard to keep seperate for instance lets consider mutilation. If a killer mutilates a body while trying to get to an organ then it would be considered MO. If however he kills, then mutilates just to leave a mark then its signature.

Now back to my original reply. Signature can happen before the kill.

If a killer ties his victim up then carves a pentagram into his stomach before killing him. would that not be the definition of signature. not necessary for the kill and done only to leave a mark.

[Malcolm X]

[QUOTE=smezenen;84799][QUOTE=Malcolm X;84798]
Hutch could easily have broken in at 4am, him lurking outside are the perfect tactics required to achieve this, yes there's a few people around but it would only take 5 mins to get in.

He would have made a lot of noise in that 5 minutes. have you Ever tried to break into a house, its a noisy afair. And for it to ba a lightning raid he would have made more noise. This is from first hand experience. I have conducted raid on houses its noisy and people hear it. So taht leaves a stealthy aproach to brreaking in and more chance that she will hear him too early and raise the alarm. Then there where people coming and going to work Mayy Ann Cox testifies to hearing people leaving for work in the markets from 3 AM on. (She also testified to hearing MJK singing at 3 AM when she returned home). So for your theory to work Jack had to stake the place out to find a time that noone is around. but unless he lived there he might draw the attention of someone who did. Thats too risky for Jack. what ever you think about Jack he is a cunning bastard and doesnt take big risks thats also part of his MO. I agree that its possible for him to have broken in but only becouse there is no inconclusive proof that its not possible. and as you say it feels too heavy and its too wrong and to risky.

JTR could've reached the door mechanism (on the inside) through the broken lower glass pane...again, this has been discussed often...and i achieved this on a similar set up 3 years ago. Hutch or somebody else could've therefore broken in quickly without making much noise, this is mentioned here often....because we've been discusing this for years!

no, mrs Cox last heard Mary singing at 1am, but at 3am when she returned again, she said; ``all was quiet and no light on in her room``...please check this forum for the correct information..no insult intended.

mrs Lewis noticed nothing at no 13 when she returned at 2.30am, so Mary stopped singing sometime before this.

we dont know the exact nature of how JTR strangled/ subdued quietly, but he did and in quite a few varying situations...so whatever he did, he was highly efficient ( even though a few managed to put up a slight fight, which is to be expected anyway)... this is what i'm saying, because if he was Blotchy Face; then these same opportunities would've arisen again, whilst inside no 13 during a 4 hour period....(obviously)

but these opportunities for Blotchy to kill, might have been unwise to take, because the safest time to kill in there, would've been at 4am, because any earlier and he takes a huge risk of one of her friends, or a neighbour banging on her door and not going away, so he might've decided to kill much later on, whatever the case; something went wrong if JTR was blotchy.

something went wrong anyway...... but this is easiest to understand if JTR broke in

[Malcolm X]

we all know roughly what the sig/M.O is...there's no need to keep mentioning this.... because these exist with Kelly too and the most powerful clues are right there in front of your eyes.

cut throat...blood drains out
head almost severed
face mutilations as per Eddowes...but more advanced
interest in thorax with Eddowes
severe mutilations to thorax with Kelly
organ taken away
the difference between the face mutilations of last two victims, is in proportion to the difference in overall body mutilations in last two.

this murderer is actually fairly consistant, conclusion:- JTR

[Malcolm X]

now if this was a copycat that knew his crimes well/ M.O/SIG, then yes; it would indeed work.... it would fool everybody, but this would need to be a one off murder only.... from an ex lover or somebody that bore her a severe grudge, if not; then you'd see other copycat murders out on the street too and there simply aint enough mutilations out there to satisfy two identical killers!

this other killer (or more) was a disorganised street thug with a hap hazzard M.O/ semi blunt knife, the only other murders that look organised are those Torsos.....A.Mckenzie? yea' well that looks like a copycat... but lacks the ``almost severed head``...plus an organ taken away

so JTR's crimes look unique, with a massive question mark over Stride and now a massive question mark of why JTR attacked MARY with a knife and didn't subdue her like the others first.

i'm not plugging Hutch here, i'm focusing on Blotchy too.