The Ripper's MO....

[Malcolm X]

and Eddowes shows the beginning of his interest in the thorax too, a rapidly evolving M.O, but to take this exploration further, JTR needs to spend much more time with the victim...hence he kills indoors.

but this further exploration goes over the top, he simply cant stop butchering her, because this is very similar to ``binge drinking``. he's simply over indulged his sick mind in an orgy of blood and guts....he thinks he's died and gone to heaven.

flexibility and a progresion in his M.O, this is human nature, it's a learning experience........ but the basic M.O that ties all these victims to JTR is still VERY MUCH there, i guess some members simply cant see the woods for the trees....enough said.

[Christine]

The thorax is only a few inches away from the abdomen. I doubt if the killer made the distinction. On the other hand, the distinction between killings motivated by personal motives and killings motivated by psychopathology is huge. Even if the Ripper knew Kelly, the focus of that killing was mutilation, not some sort of real or imagined personal issues.

[perrymason]

we're not twisting the Ripper to suit our theories Mike, it's based on logical arguement and a clearly seen progression in his M.O.

because i can say the ame about you too, you keep assuming things that haven't been proven...you're portraying JTR as a cyborg....with a rigid M.O, but life just isn't like this.

finally, you're definitely in a minority here, because most of us believe that Kelly and Liz are Ripper victims...history reflects the same too, the only question mark is over who killed Stride.

you should realise that most Serial killers vary their M.O...you'll not see all murders in a group that are totally alike, i feel (no insults intended) that you're following the wrong path here, you've taken the wrong turning...and it'll lead you nowhere.

Hi Malcolm,

What exactly is happening is that people are trying to include even more unrelated acts to Jack than just the 2 Motis Operandi departure murders he's blamed for....and that means that people are assuming his variety of styles and changes seen in The Canonical Group reflect the true nature of the killer.....which is varied, based on the Group itself.

That ignores the fact that 3 women in 5 weeks were attacked-killed and mutilated almost identically. Its a model of behavior that lasts through 3 deaths, perhaps consecutive, that he is attributed with....and that is absent in the remaining 2 murders.

Before we embrace a mad killer philosophy, one who is capable of one cut to the throat or taking women apart in pieces, as well as specific targetted murders he commits in sequence,... maybe consider its not that Im being inflexible Mal....but rather an attitide towards the killer is being accepted that is not based on evidence but rather the "guesses" that the differences we see are due to his wide range of styles.

You and everyone might say "he just changed MO", or "we see studies of arrested and interviewed modern era serial killers that says sometime they vary their style".....those are both refuted by the string of 3 women murdered remarkably similarly.

I think the killer you and others see might have been one of 4 men who attacked Emma, stabbed Martha, killed Liz and took Mary apart. The man I see in the evidence may have been much more specific....cause thats what 3 deaths within the Canon shows us.

Cheers mate

[Malcolm X]

The thorax is only a few inches away from the abdomen. I doubt if the killer made the distinction. On the other hand, the distinction between killings motivated by personal motives and killings motivated by psychopathology is huge. Even if the Ripper knew Kelly, the focus of that killing was mutilation, not some sort of real or imagined personal issues.

wound from neck downwards, that's more than a few inches away....this is the first murder where he's shown any interest in the thorax, this is quite a large progression in his M.O

if he was only interested in the Abdoman, he would've targeted this area only, like the other murders.

[smezenen]

That is the official repetitive baseline MO that I see within some 13 deaths, and it applies to only 4 women.

Try Liz and Mary with that repetitive attack-kill-mutilate Phased approach.

(hint): He first attacks both of them with a knife.

I thought we had already established that MO can shift with a change in environment.
If more evidence is needed, let us examine another Serial killer to see if its possible.

Ted Bundy for instance he killed up to 36 women aged 12-26 in Washington, Colarado, Utah, Oregon, Idaho, and Florida. various environments from indors to outdoors and across teh united States some he beat to death some he cut and stabed to death, and at least one he shot. sometimes he raped before killing, some he raped after killing,

this is just a quick example that shows you shouldn't be trying to climb inside the head of a very sick individual and say that he only did it one way when there is plenty of evidence to say he did it multiple ways. Jack was a very demented person there is no arguing that becouse nobody in their right minds does these things. you cant say that a demented person only did it one way when they are not predictible in any way. (unless they have OCD I guess)

My point is Michael you spot on in alot of things but you are also are to rigid in your opinion and not taking the contemporary information into consideration when it doesnt fit your theory.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Malcolm,

What exactly is happening is that people are trying to include even more unrelated acts to Jack than just the 2 Motis Operandi departure murders he's blamed for....and that means that people are assuming his variety of styles and changes seen in The Canonical Group reflect the true nature of the killer.....which is varied, based on the Group itself.

That ignores the fact that 3 women in 5 weeks were attacked-killed and mutilated almost identically. Its a model of behavior that lasts through 3 deaths, perhaps consecutive, that he is attributed with....and that is absent in the remaining 2 murders.

Before we embrace a mad killer philosophy, one who is capable of one cut to the throat or taking women apart in pieces, as well as specific targetted murders he commits in sequence,... maybe consider its not that Im being inflexible Mal....but rather an attitide towards the killer is being accepted that is not based on evidence but rather the "guesses" that the differences we see are due to his wide range of styles.

You and everyone might say "he just changed MO", or "we see studies of arrested and interviewed modern era serial killers that says sometime they vary their style".....those are both refuted by the string of 3 women murdered remarkably similarly.

I think the killer you and others see might have been one of 4 men who attacked Emma, stabbed Martha, killed Liz and took Mary apart. The man I see in the evidence may have been much more specific....cause thats what 3 deaths within the Canon shows us.

Cheers mate

hi Mike
i was beginning to think that you were ignoring me.....

no no no no no..........he did not change his M.O, the original M.O is still there with Eddowes/Kelly....

he meerly added to his M.O...be careful here my friend

part of his original M.O is head almost severed/ cut throat first, blood draining out first.... this is not present in any other Whitechapel serial killer

part of his seconday M.O is seen on both Eddowes/Kelly.......face mutilations/ interest in the thorax...........but the original M.O is still there.

MO.................MO...............MO............ ...MO.........it's constant all the way through, but he's adding additional criteria to it....

now then, neither Tabram or Stride have the original M.O, Tabram has none of JTR's M.O at all, and Stride only has 20% of it.

but the other Ripper victims all have the full M.O plus progression.

now Kelly varies the most..............it has to, because this is an indoors murder that requires totally different tactics, but Jack cocked it up good and proper.....but the huge bulk of the original M.O is still there........cut throat/ blood drains out/ almost severed head...

no other Whitechapel murderer, and there is another one for sure, has the same basic M.O..........fact

the Kelly murder is interesting, my recent developments point towards a break in only....nothing else makes sense.

[smezenen]

Hi Malcolm,

What exactly is happening is that people are trying to include even more unrelated acts to Jack than just the 2 Motis Operandi departure murders he's blamed for....and that means that people are assuming his variety of styles and changes seen in The Canonical Group reflect the true nature of the killer.....which is varied, based on the Group itself.

Michael,
if you missed it please go back and take a look at POST #19 I listed the kills in order with the injuries involved. when you look at the information in that format it shows an ordered progression thru the C5 kills. as you read the list take into account that Stride may not have been a Ripper victim or that Jack was interupted while in the middle of it either way, which ever side of the coin you are on on that one, the list still works. it matters not weather they are inside or outside the list still works, it matters not weather he choked or cut first the list still works. Im not assuming his variety and style (M.O.) changed, Im saying that it did change based on the contemporary evidence collected by the people that actually investigated these murders. His signature 3 phases as you call them did not change for any reason under his control. he did have to deviate in the case of MJK becouse for whatever reason he had diffculty subduing her, maybe becouse she was already laying down and he couldnt get a good grip on her throat. Explains the bruising on her neck.

[Malcolm X]

Mike knows his stuff and is fantastic with regards to Stride, he helped me a lot, but i honestly believe he's totally off course here.

he has one hell of a fight on his hand to get KELLY anything other than a ripper victim, it's an almost impossible battle to win, and too far a stretch of imagination to pin this one on a Copycat...

we need another thread for this Mike, we cant be talking about Kelly here..

a Copycat?...........yes it could be, bloody hell yes... but one heck of an arguement to convince people....this isn't a swing in a summer breeze, like Stride is.

the basic M.O is still there in all these murders, but it's being added to.......plus of course the Signature, which is also (with my suspect) being added to as well

[smezenen]

the Kelly murder is interesting, my recent developments point towards a break in only....nothing else makes sense.

A break in is a strong possible but consider this what if Jack did know her. What if the reason for the long break thru all of October is becouse Jack is courting a few ladies that have rooms of their own. he is looking to get comfortable with one so that she will take him inside for a long period of time. I realize that MJK wouldnt fall into this paticular group untill Barnett moves out but maybe he knew her before that and when Mr. B left it gave the perfect oppertunity. What if the man seen with Kelly at 2AM is Jack the Ripper and assuming the above is possible then wouldnt the phrase "All right, my dear. Come along. You will be comfortable." indicate she knew the man she was with and was comfortble around him. Once again speculation but thats what im good at

[Malcolm X]

the break in time (a month) could also be due to JTR waiting for her to be finally alone in that room, no friends or lovers staying anymore...i.e he killed her on the first available weekend..

or the fact that she was blind drunk for the 1st time in weeks and JTR maybe noticed this while stalking Dorset st.

or Blotchy was JTR or Chapman killed her

but it looks like due to very strong speculation, that JTR broke in... this explains the shift in primary M.O, i.e he didn't suddenly strangle her first..because she put up a brief fight/ bed sheet cut up/maybe ``oh murder``...defensive cut wounds etc.

we must consider that JTR might have been in bed with her:-
if so, then he really did mess up this murder, because suddenly strangling her while in a romantic embrace/having sex, must be one of the easiest things to do in the whole wide world...but no, she saw him attacking her at range first

in adition, if JTR had got out of bed, changed and then attacked her, then this too doesn't make sense, (if she was awake) unless he was a total devil may care crazed fool, (thin walls, neighbours all around to hear her screaming etc etc), remember, the facts seem to show that this attack was with his knife in hand.

now what about him changing to leave, but her waking up as he came in close to kill her?.....no, you either wake up as a lover disturbs your sleep getting out of bed, or you sleep right through it, especially after being blind drunk.

the obvious thing for any intelligent person to do, is to strangle her while in bed in a romantic embrace, dead easy, quick and silent too.

we have one other glaring problem and this is the biggest of all...how did Kelly know that JTR was about to attack her, if he was already in the room........that room would've been pitch black inside unless the fire was still on and i bet you it wasn't at 4am...you would not see an attack comming, not a hope in hell...you would hardly be able to see him, especially with tired boozed up eyes

i bet you 20 million quid that he broke in and she woke up, this explains perfectly; him cocking up this murder and thus a shift in his primary M.O ( which is near perfection already)

[Christine]

the break in time (a month) could also be due to JTR waiting for her to be finally alone in that room, no friends or lovers staying anymore...i.e he killed her on the first available weekend..

or the fact that she was blind drunk for the 1st time in weeks and JTR maybe noticed this while stalking Dorset st.

or Blotchy was JTR or Chapman killed her

but it looks like due to very strong speculation, that JTR broke in... this explains the shift in primary M.O, i.e he didn't suddenly strangle her first..because she put up a brief fight/ bed sheet cut up/maybe ``oh murder``...defensive cut wounds etc.

we must consider that JTR might have been in bed with her:-
if so, then he really did mess up this murder, because suddenly strangling her while in a romantic embrace/having sex, must be one of the easiest things to do in the whole wide world...but no, she saw him attacking her at range first

in adition, if JTR had got out of bed, changed and then attacked her, then this too doesn't make sense, (if she was awake) unless he was a total devil may care crazed fool, (thin walls, neighbours all around to hear her screaming etc etc), remember, the facts seem to show that this attack was with his knife in hand.

now what about him changing to leave, but her waking up as he came in close to kill her?.....no, you either wake up as a lover disturbs your sleep getting out of bed, or you sleep right through it, especially after being blind drunk.

the obvious thing for any intelligent person to do, is to strangle her while in bed in a romantic embrace, dead easy, quick and silent too.

we have one other glaring problem and this is the biggest of all...how did Kelly know that JTR was about to attack her, if he was already in the room........that room would've been pitch black inside unless the fire was still on and i bet you it wasn't at 4am...you would not see an attack comming, not a hope in hell...you would hardly be able to see him, especially with tired boozed up eyes

i bet you 20 million quid that he broke in and she woke up, this explains perfectly; him cocking up this murder and thus a shift in his primary M.O ( which is near perfection already)

How do you know he didn't attack her while embracing her? She certainly would have struggled to get free and cried out if she could have. The knife would have been near at hand in any case.

The strongest argument I see against this theory is that he was probably not capable of normal sex, so he might have thought twice about getting into this situation. He might also have been repelled by normal foreplay. But it's also possible that he needed validation that she was a "whore" before he actually killed her, and so required for her to undress, pull up her skirt, etc.

[Sam Flynn]

General point: Can we please not discuss "signature" issues on this "MO" thread?

For clarity: "Signature" = what happened from the point that he killed his victims and onwards; "MO" = what he might have done before he killed his victims. This thread is about the latter.

Ta!

(The reason I started this one in the first place was because "MO" discussions had started taking over a "signature" thread!)

[Malcolm X]

How do you know he didn't attack her while embracing her? She certainly would have struggled to get free and cried out if she could have. The knife would have been near at hand in any case.

The strongest argument I see against this theory is that he was probably not capable of normal sex, so he might have thought twice about getting into this situation. He might also have been repelled by normal foreplay. But it's also possible that he needed validation that she was a "whore" before he actually killed her, and so required for her to undress, pull up her skirt, etc.

we dont know that JTR was incapable of normal sex, he was interested in mutilations/organ collections only, his murders aren't sex related at all, he kills quickly and efficiently and shows no signs of sexual sadism, or over the top violence/ rage...as a killer he's actually quite compassionate, death comes quickly....he is nothing like Bundy/ sutcliffe.

Sam these threads are M.O related, very much so it's virtually impossible to mention M.O without being deviated onto other issues, your priority might be better spent controlling that ``1911 census thread``, because that thread is totally out of control and spoiling this forum!..... becaue on other forums, that thread would be locked by now

[Malcolm X]

as to her struggling like crazy while he embraced her and then suddenly attacked her..... the evidence seems to point towards her seeing him at range, due the slashes in the bed sheet, defencive cuts and ``Oh murder``

if he strangled her first you'd see none of this..... because the knife would only be used afterwards....this is a deviation from his M.O.

this tells me that he wasn't in bed having sex with her when he struck, and definitely not in bed with her and strangling her while she was asleep...and unless he lit a candle to put his clothes on, she would not have seen him launching an attack in pitch darkness either...not on a cloudy evening at 4am.

my guess is:- as JTR opened the door, MARY felt a cold draught entering her room, heard the door squeak and maybe the door banged/ moved the table... because we're not sure exactly where that table was, she screamed in terror ``oh murder`` and covered her face in her bed sheet....like a young girl scared of ghosts.

he dived on her slashing wildly with his knife and trying to grab her head too, slashing though the bed sheet, he probably let go of his knife and then strangled her through the sheet, (anything to shut her up as quick as possible) he then flicked the bed sheet off her face over to the right hand side (as found) and then searched for his knife and cut her throat...so as you can see, he really messed up this murder.

but the exact nature of how he killed her is unimportant, it's when and how did Mary notice the initial attack....

[Malcolm X]

I QUOTE:-

``Some serial killers repeatedly, leave psychological markers, called a signature. Signatures include posing, concealing victims, or inserting objects in the bodies after death for the killers gratification. As a killer needs to punish and degrade victims intensifies as they may develop unique preferences.

James Fox, a Northeastern University criminal justice professor, says signatures aren't as common as people believe.

A signature is different from a modus operandi, (mode of operation, MO) the way they find, overpower, and kill a victim without getting caught. The MO changes as the killer refines their methods.``

as said, this thread is therefore M.O related, the M.O is everything from leaving home that night, to almost severing the head and avoiding detection before and after he kills....the signature is removing the organs, the signature is very confusing... we dont really need it, because it's the M.O that reveals the Ripper...even the experts argue over ``recognising`` the true Signature of a serial killer.