The Ripper's MO....

[Sam Flynn]

Can I make a suggestion that nobody mentions Mary Jane Kelly again until we're at least on page 5 of this thread?

Any ideas on the MO from Polly thru Kate?

[smezenen]

Micheal,
You have stated in past posts that you believe Jacks point of interest is the abdomin. I would put forth the mortuary photo of Catherine Eddowes showing that she was cut from the base of her throat to her pubic area, stem to stern as it where,as proof to refute this. I also think it may show that his signature and MO may not have changed so much as has been forth here.

[Mascara & Paranoia]

Not exactly m.o. talk, but:

I believe the evidence shows that in 3 of 5 attributed murders, he was specifically interested in the abdomens and genitals of women, and the uterus in particular.

Then you'd believe wrong, going by the evidence. Only two of five showed a specific interest in the uterus in particular. Four of five showed interest in both abdominal and genital mutilations. And two of five showed interest in facial mutilations.

[smezenen]

You have to put the crimes, (considered as the outcome of the killer's actions, decisions and opportunities) in context. He's not a machine, he's a man. How would you do it? How would you adapt each time to the situation? People treat serial killers like machines driven by rigid internal forces and it makes my blood boil.

I'm sorry if you took my post as meaning that I thought Jack was machine like in his manner. I meant quite the opposite. HE did change his M.O. from one kill to the next. As illustrated below

1st canonical Mary Nicholes, he cut the throat then the abdomen but does not remove anything.

2nd canonical Annie Chapman, cut to throat (same) cut to abdomen (same) uterus and its appendages with the upper portion of the vagina and the posterior two thirds of the bladder missing (new)

3rd canonical Elizabeth Stride, cut throat (same) but then for some reason he abandons the kill. Interrupted? Not a ripper kills?

4th canonical Catherine Eddows, cut throat (same) cut abdomen (same) kidney and uterus missing (same) face mutilation (different)

5th canonical Mary Jane Kelly, cut throat (same) cut abdomen (same) heart missing (same) face mutilation (same) extent of overall mutilation is extreme in this case because he had more time with the body (different)

This shows a progressive change in his M.O. But a fairly constant signature, the cut throat.

[Malcolm X]

I'm sorry if you took my post as meaning that I thought Jack was machine like in his manner. I meant quite the opposite. HE did change his M.O. from one kill to the next. As illustrated below

1st canonical Mary Nicholes, he cut the throat then the abdomen but does not remove anything.

2nd canonical Annie Chapman, cut to throat (same) cut to abdomen (same) uterus and its appendages with the upper portion of the vagina and the posterior two thirds of the bladder missing (new)

3rd canonical Elizabeth Stride, cut throat (same) but then for some reason he abandons the kill. Interrupted? Not a ripper kills?

4th canonical Catherine Eddows, cut throat (same) cut abdomen (same) kidney and uterus missing (same) face mutilation (different)

5th canonical Mary Jane Kelly, cut throat (same) cut abdomen (same) heart missing (same) face mutilation (same) extent of overall mutilation is extreme in this case because he had more time with the body (different)

This shows a progressive change in his M.O. But a fairly constant signature, the cut throat.

yes, common sense at last .....cut throat/ almost severed head...classic JTR

a much more revoluting mutilation = much more time available to do so

Chapman/Eddowes out on the streeet = take care, dont hang around at the crime scene too long!

Stride = a good place to kill quickly, but a very bad place to mutilate = maybe not JTR..... because the only murder of his that makes no sense is Stride.

Eddowes cut from throat to abdoman is interesting... maybe he didn't have enough time to get through her rib cage, so he opted for a softer target....sorry, he definitely didn't have enough time to access her heart!

whatever the case, this is a very good point that i've totally missed....thanks! ...because this long cut shows that JTR was interested in the thorax region too, damn; i've totally missed this over the years, ( very careless of me) this makes Kelly even more like a JTR victim

[Malcolm X]

the clue to the street murders is lack of time available, this constantly comes through, he's in a rush.... but this sudden interest in the thorax, plus the start of face mutilations too; is very important because he's suddenly upped his M.O.

his next victim is really going to get carved up, you can sense this; it's like a foreboding, but to achieve this, he must realise that he has to go indoors; because this'll take much more time (obviously)..... we see a month gap, yes; he's now searching for a woman that has her own room, my guess is; that during this month he spoke to many prostitutes and none of them had a room, so he walked off, because simply killing them there and then, didn't interest him any more...i bet he spent flipping hours searching for his next victim.

he's now modified his M.O for his next victim and it has to be fixed in concrete...
1....next victim must have her own room...

oh good grief, i've just noticed something, this killer is one smart cookie!

[Malcolm X]

whatever the case, this long cut to Eddowes explains a lot and closes the M.O between the last 2 victims....by quite a long way.

Kelly is therefore a natural progression from Eddowes... far more so than i felt yesterday!

i'm so surpried that this long cut didn't register its full implication on me until now... almost 12 years....flipping heck !

[smezenen]

Malcolm,
I just made the same connection yesterday after about 20 years so dont beat yourself up too bad

[Malcolm X]

Malcolm,
I just made the same connection yesterday after about 20 years so dont beat yourself up too bad

yes it's very strange isn't it, because it's so obvious too.

so his M.O was evolving, but no more murders in Whitechapel after Kelly...but similar murders soon afterwards abroad, a merchant sailor?

Take a quick look at this :-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/may/03/books.ukcrime

but i think these murders might be a hoax, to boost his book.... because nobody else has found any info on these murders either!

this has all come about due to the Eddowes sighting looking like a sailor...or some other twaddle!

[perrymason]

Then you'd believe wrong, going by the evidence. Only two of five showed a specific interest in the uterus in particular. Four of five showed interest in both abdominal and genital mutilations. And two of five showed interest in facial mutilations.

Then Im in good company being wrong, the coroner for Pollys Inquest suggested he was after her uterus, and changed only the venue for Annie so he could acquire it next outing.

As for 4 of 5 showing interest in abdominal mutilations...thats an interesting perspective. But not supportable.

Best regards

[perrymason]

I wont pursue the recent mutilations discussion as per request, Ill just add that Kate is in my opinion, a Ripper victim with an asterix. There is much about that setting and statements that is in my opinion, questionable.

Which is MO related.

It would appear that just 3 of the first victims were picked up, attacked and mutilated in the same Phased approach. Virtually identical methodology. Liz does not have that in evidence with the same clarity.....she is not known to have been soliciting, she stated herself she was not going to stay at the lodging house that night, so she must have had other plans, she is cut once with no evidence that might suggest the killer intended more.

The Canonical Group is based on the presumption that the Ripper was very flexible in his methods...the 3 victims above, possibly consecutive ones and all within 5 weeks, do not suggest "flexibility" to me. In fact quite the opposite. He seems repetitive.

Best regards all.

[perrymason]

For those who think they can twist and shape what Jack does based upon how they see him and who he killed....should remember that there is no record of Jacks murders in existence. There are no convictions, court trials, named suspects, there is no evidence that was left at the first crime scene that repeats in later one, there is no Jack The Ripper.

Its a pen-name, a nickname for the Whitechapel Murderer, an assumed serial killer, who Police thought may have killed everyone from Emma to Alice.

There is no Ripper victims list that is factual, proven or even logical IMHO.

But within the group of murders from Spring 1888 to Late Spring 1889 there are a few victims, 4 to be exact, that have virtually identical methodology and resulting injuries.

Thats Polly, Annie, Kate*, and Alice MacKenzie.

It appears they ALL met a killer posing as a client after midnight outdoors, he followed or led them somewhere private and dark, he attacked them without using a knife, caused them to lose consciousness or the ability to resist, he lay them down and produced a knife to cut their throats..and once thats completed, he gained access to their abdomens via cutting or lifting the garments from their midsections, and he mutilated ALL of them in that area. Some lost organs.

That is the official repetitive baseline MO that I see within some 13 deaths, and it applies to only 4 women.

Try Liz and Mary with that repetitive attack-kill-mutilate Phased approach.

(hint): He first attacks both of them with a knife.

Best regards.

[smezenen]

As for 4 of 5 showing interest in abdominal mutilations...thats an interesting perspective. But not supportable.

Michael,
reading the coroners reports we find the following wounds: (I will copy and past from the victims files)

Nichols=just about the lower part of the abdomen. Two or three inches from the left side was a wound running in a jagged manner. The wound was a very deep one, and the tissues were cut through. There were several incisions running across the abdomen. There were three or four similar cuts running downwards, on the right side

Chapman=,The abdomen had been entirely laid open.

Eddows=The abdomen was exposed. The intestines were drawn out to a large extent

Kelly= The whole of the surface of the abdomen and thighs was removed and the abdominal cavity emptied of its viscera.

thats 4 out of 5 supported by contemporary evidence....

it also shows as you point out a definite interest in the abdomen. If you list all the injuries of each case in order (as i did a few posts up the thread) it shows that Jacks focus seemed to have started in the abdomen/pelvic area but with each kill he moved farther up and deeper into the body.

Repetitive yes but also evolving.

[Malcolm X]

we're not twisting the Ripper to suit our theories Mike, it's based on logical arguement and a clearly seen progression in his M.O.

because i can say the ame about you too, you keep assuming things that haven't been proven...you're portraying JTR as a cyborg....with a rigid M.O, but life just isn't like this.

finally, you're definitely in a minority here, because most of us believe that Kelly and Liz are Ripper victims...history reflects the same too, the only question mark is over who killed Stride.

you should realise that most Serial killers vary their M.O...you'll not see all murders in a group that are totally alike, i feel (no insults intended) that you're following the wrong path here, you've taken the wrong turning...and it'll lead you nowhere.

[perrymason]

Michael,
reading the coroners reports we find the following wounds: (I will copy and past from the victims files)

Nichols=just about the lower part of the abdomen. Two or three inches from the left side was a wound running in a jagged manner. The wound was a very deep one, and the tissues were cut through. There were several incisions running across the abdomen. There were three or four similar cuts running downwards, on the right side

Chapman=,The abdomen had been entirely laid open.

Eddows=The abdomen was exposed. The intestines were drawn out to a large extent

Kelly= The whole of the surface of the abdomen and thighs was removed and the abdominal cavity emptied of its viscera.

thats 4 out of 5 supported by contemporary evidence....

it also shows as you point out a definite interest in the abdomen. If you list all the injuries of each case in order (as i did a few posts up the thread) it shows that Jacks focus seemed to have started in the abdomen/pelvic area but with each kill he moved farther up and deeper into the body.

Repetitive yes but also evolving.

Perhaps I stated that too broadly smezenen....only three women had their abdomens mutilated as the specific target of the killer. Marys killer repeated skin flaps that had been used to access Annies abdomen and her uterus...located therein, but they werent a required step to removing her heart....which he takes instead. Annies wounds, Kates and the appearance of Pollys suggested the abdomen and items within it were his targets.

Not an organ from inside the rib cage.

Alice sits with that group based on the overall evidence, but since she is so long after what may have been a 5 week killing spree, she may have been made to appear as Jacks....like I suppose Mary was to appear.

All the best mate.