Why face mutilations on last 2 victims only

[Mitch Rowe]

What I think happened is that JTR did a sort of slash and grab with Kates innards to save time instead of his elaborate skin flap technique. Maybe he knew when Watkins was likely to show up. So he grabs the organs but he still has some time left. So he decides to cut her face.

When its MJKs turn he has plenty of time so he naturyally does the same as he did to Kate.

[Malcolm X]

i'm satisfied now that he was not a lunatic at the time of these murders, but totally in control of his mind, clinically sane i think they call it..

i would also say that due to P.Sutcliffe, that JACK was not killing in a hateful rage, he's far more calm and controlled, he is after something else here; not just the organs....

[perrymason]

It seems to me that potential reasons for the facial wounds might be very different for Kate than with Mary Kelly. And in Marys case, she is the only victim with a murder venue and circumstances that suggest her killer may have been known to her prior to that night.

Kates nose was almost completely severed...but he didnt slash at her face. Its also possible the cutting of the nose made the collateral "nicks"....see Sam Flynn on that, he has some interesting ideas. Meaning....the killer may only have intended to cut off her nose.

I can think of many symbolic meanings for that act as possible, most referring to someone who has had their "nose" in someone else's business. Cut off the nose to spit the face, being nosey, been sniffing around, ......

With Mary all I can come up with is "die you bitch" to explain her face wounds.

Best regards all.

[Malcolm X]

It seems to me that potential reasons for the facial wounds might be very different for Kate than with Mary Kelly. And in Marys case, she is the only victim with a murder venue and circumstances that suggest her killer may have been known to her prior to that night.

Kates nose was almost completely severed...but he didnt slash at her face. Its also possible the cutting of the nose made the collateral "nicks"....see Sam Flynn on that, he has some interesting ideas. Meaning....the killer may only have intended to cut off her nose.

I can think of many symbolic meanings for that act as possible, most referring to someone who has had their "nose" in someone else's business. Cut off the nose to spit the face, being nosey, been sniffing around, ......

With Mary all I can come up with is "die you bitch" to explain her face wounds.

Best regards all.

uuum interesting..............the only bit i dont agree with is ``die you bitch``

more like ``right i'm now indoors, i can make a real mess of this pretty face``

i've seen Mary mutilated in one of my nightmares, it's not a pretty sight, she was carved up slowly and methodically....... so he couldn't get blood on him, in my dream the last things he mutilated were her legs, i was standing by the second large window

[Rosey O'Ryan]

Hi Malcolm,
Did your dreams give birth to the notion that JTR was after more than organs?
Rosey :-)

[Steelysama]

The idea that there would be symbolism in the act of cutting off the nose is interesting and I cannot totally dismiss it. At the same time, the question does come up: What is the point of a symbolism that people do not recognize?

If it was symbolism, it would seem more likely that there would be some letter or even a message at the scene explaining it. Something along the lines of "She was a nosey one, so I took her nose" or some other twisted message. But as it is, if The Ripper was trying to create symbolism, then he failed to get his point through in any significant way.

[perrymason]

The idea that there would be symbolism in the act of cutting off the nose is interesting and I cannot totally dismiss it. At the same time, the question does come up: What is the point of a symbolism that people do not recognize?

If it was symbolism, it would seem more likely that there would be some letter or even a message at the scene explaining it. Something along the lines of "She was a nosey one, so I took her nose" or some other twisted message. But as it is, if The Ripper was trying to create symbolism, then he failed to get his point through in any significant way.

Hi Steely,

I think an interpretation may depend on to whom the message is being sent. If for example, it was for another Unfortunate who was also rumored to have been seeking to be about to claim the reward for turning in the killer...it may have been easily understood and very effective.

Its interesting to me that the only women with facial cuts are the last two, and that on the night they died they both were calling themselves Mary Kelly.

Best regards SS.

[Malcolm X]

Hi Malcolm,
Did your dreams give birth to the notion that JTR was after more than organs?
Rosey :-)

hi Rosey

what i saw wasn't the worst nightmare i've ever had, it was more like watching an autopsy .... i was very standoffish, i didn't wake up screaming etc.

no the notion that JTR was after more than organs is something i sense with connection to the occult, but it's not a strong theory just a suspicion.

unfortunately, none of this tells us who the Ripper is.... whatever the case, i sense strongly that something isn't right and that were missing something major.

my guess is that a ``newbie`` here, or someone like Perrymason/Hyde will suss this out......not me, i've been here too long i cant see the woods for the trees anymore.

i think we dont realise or haven't paid enough attention to what Whitechapel was really like at nighttime, how dark it was and the nature of stalking using the cover of darkness.............and how areas change at night

just food for thought

[Malcolm X]

Hi Steely,



Its interesting to me that the only women with facial cuts are the last two, and that on the night they died they both were calling themselves Mary Kelly.

Best regards SS.

yes mike

that's why i opened the thread, but a killer that was searching for a ``MARY KELLY`` in Whitechapel would've known what she looked like, or close to....and Eddowes is way off

but searching for a last victim called Mary is very interesting indeed, this is one of my crazy theories

[Rosey O'Ryan]

Hi Malcoln,
Maybe what you were witnessing in a dream state was an autopsy of a sort... upside down and back to front!
Have you read - 'An Experiment With Time'?
Rosey :-)

[Steelysama]

I suppose that a good line of inquiry, then, would be as follows:

Which is more likely? That The Ripper was intending a specific symbolism? Or that his level of brutality was increasing the more he murdered, possibly to sate his need for a greater and greater "thrill" or "high"?

As I said, I cannot dismiss the symbolism theory. I think this inquiry needs to be looked at, though.

A second line of inquiry would be:

If The Ripper was looking for someone named Mary Kelly, then what of the remaining three victims in the canonical five? Or, for that matter, possible earlier victims like Martha Tabram? Did any of these have any association with that name? Or would he have killed them for another reason?

[Malcolm X]

Hi Malcoln,
Maybe what you were witnessing in a dream state was an autopsy of a sort... upside down and back to front!
Have you read - 'An Experiment With Time'?
Rosey :-)

no i havent read that that book, sorry.

yes it appeared to me like real life, but i was watching by the second window, sort of floating near the ceiling, i couldn't see the Ripper's face my vision was no higher than his chest level, plus he had his back to me

[Malcolm X]

I suppose that a good line of inquiry, then, would be as follows:

Which is more likely? That The Ripper was intending a specific symbolism? Or that his level of brutality was increasing the more he murdered, possibly to sate his need for a greater and greater "thrill" or "high"?

As I said, I cannot dismiss the symbolism theory. I think this inquiry needs to be looked at, though.

A second line of inquiry would be:

If The Ripper was looking for someone named Mary Kelly, then what of the remaining three victims in the canonical five? Or, for that matter, possible earlier victims like Martha Tabram? Did any of these have any association with that name? Or would he have killed them for another reason?

that's my theory too, that Kelly was a symbol of something else, occult related, she looks posed and similar to a hideous occult sacrafice...especially with her heart removed.

i wonder if Mary was in the killers mind a representation of Mary Magdelane, but please; this is only a crazy theory, search the web and you'll see Whitechapel is named after MARY MATFELON, who is MARY MAGDELANE, maybe these murders at these locations correspond to an occult symbol, that require a blood sacrafice, with the last victim needing to be called Mary and young/ sexually active and looking like the classic English rose.

unfortunately, i've been too lazy lately to do any research.

[c.d.]

that's my theory too, that Kelly was a symbol of something else, occult related, she looks posed and similar to a hideous occult sacrafice...especially with her heart removed.

i wonder if Mary was in the killers mind a representation of Mary Magdelane, but please; this is only a crazy theory, search the web and you'll see Whitechapel is named after MARY MATFELON, who is MARY MAGDELANE, maybe these murders at these locations correspond to an occult symbol, that require a blood sacrafice, with the last victim needing to be called Mary and young/ sexually active and looking like the classic English rose.

unfortunately, i've been too lazy lately to do any research.

Hi Malcom,

You are right on. It is a crazy theory.

c.d.

[Malcolm X]

except for I.Edwards and his visca pieces, i cannot see an occult symol in the murder pattern of my own,( i dont want to copy his theory because that's not right), especially if you remove Stride, because i'm not sure she's a ripper victim

but with Stride included you have 2 similar triangles.............bloody hell, that's no good!

as for you C.D, you can clear off