Can Serial Killers Quit?

[j.r-ahde]

Hello Diana!

Probably there has always been serial killers. But these days we are more aware of them!

Here comes the odd point to this discussion;

One historian named the following worst serial killers of western history: Julius Caesar, the crusaders, Louis the XIVth, Napoleon, King Leopold II of Belgium, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, etc.

Does this make sense to any of you, dear fellow members?

All the best
Jukka

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

The BTK killer - Dennis Rader - is himself evidence of that serial killers CAN quit - or at least have very long cooling off periods lasting a couple of decades. So there's another myth down the drain.

[diana]

But was BTK the same type of serial killer as JtR? BTK was a psychopath whereas JtR was I believe a paranoid schizophrenic. Wouldn't that make a difference?

[DarkPassenger]

Hello Diana!

Probably there has always been serial killers. But these days we are more aware of them!

Here comes the odd point to this discussion;

One historian named the following worst serial killers of western history: Julius Caesar, the crusaders, Louis the XIVth, Napoleon, King Leopold II of Belgium, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, etc.

Does this make sense to any of you, dear fellow members?

All the best
Jukka

They are not serial killers. Simple.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

But was BTK the same type of serial killer as JtR? BTK was a psychopath whereas JtR was I believe a paranoid schizophrenic. Wouldn't that make a difference?

Only if we knew what type of serial killer the Ripper was, Diana, and I believe that is a question very much open to debate. None of us know or have enough information in order to establish the Ripper's psychological category. Although I tend to see his disorganized traits slightly weighing over, I would hesitate to label him in any shape or form. There are no real evidence of that he was a schizofrenic and there are no real evidence of the contrary either.

I also believe that the large majority of serial killers do belong to the organized psyhopathic category, which would in itself make the Rader (BTK) point highly relevant - the schizofrenic ones are a very small minority (and I would indeed find them less likely to stop or being able to control their actions). Although exceptions do exist (like Richard Henry Chase), even those have to be looked upon carefully.

All the best

[j.r-ahde]

Hello DarkPassenger!

Yes, just like I thought too; not serial killers in a sense generally known. I just presented this point for a change!

But what would be the right term?! They are responsible for the deaths of millions (or probably thousands with Louis the XIVth)...

All the best
Jukka

[diana]

Glenn, I would encourage you to read the account of the Canadian bus decapitation which happened last summer. It was very reminiscent of JtR. The perpetrator, Mr. Li was captured. He was paranoid schizophrenic.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/31/world/main4311559.shtml

I don't think we are as far apart as you might think. You agreed that it would usually be harder for a paranoid schizophrenic than for a psychopath to quit. That was really the point. There are no absolutes in this.

I can't be absolutely certain that JtR was paranoid schizophrenic either, but after the bus decapitation, I am as certain as any of us can be 120 years later.

[DarkPassenger]

Hello DarkPassenger!

Yes, just like I thought too; not serial killers in a sense generally known. I just presented this point for a change!

But what would be the right term?! They are responsible for the deaths of millions (or probably thousands with Louis the XIVth)...

All the best
Jukka

They did not kill the victims themselves, or even if they did, they did so for political reasons. Serial killers kill out of a psychological need and benefit from the act of killing itself, whereas these tyrants killed for convenience.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Joseph James DeAngelo was arrested more than 30 years after he last committed murder.

Dennis Rader was arrested 14 years after his last murder.

They did not stop killing because they had been incarcerated in a lunatic asylum, nor because they had died, nor because they had been imprisoned.

[Abby Normal]

Joseph James DeAngelo was arrested more than 30 years after he last committed murder.

Dennis Rader was arrested 14 years after his last murder.

They did not stop killing because they had been incarcerated in a lunatic asylum, nor because they had died, nor because they had been imprisoned.

yup. and kemper turned himself in

[JeffHamm]

Along with the examples given (DeAngelo, Rader, etc), there are also those cases that have remained unsolved. For example, Zodiac, as far as we know, quite after the murder of taxi driver Stine. There is the possibility he attempted a later abduction, where the woman escaped, but it's not a sure thing. Even so, it would appear he quit after that.

Of course, we don't know why he quit, so maybe he died, was incarcerated, etc, but Zodiac is not the only series that is unsolved. It may be that many of those unsolved series involve serial killers who, for whatever reason, quit. The ones who got caught may have done so because they didn't quit, giving us a biased sample when we look at solved cases. Of course, by their very nature of being unsolved, the reason for the series to stop remains unknown.

It's a tricky question, though. What is interesting from the DeAngelo and Rader examples is that what were unsolved cases that later got solved through improved technology (DeAngelo) or the offender re-contacting the police which provided new leads (Rader), we can see that at least some of those unsolved cases appear to reflect serial killers who quit. Perhaps the percentage who quit is much higher than we think?

- Jeff

[mpriestnall]

I think of JTR's obvious murderous psychopathy as "situational", that he specifically murdered the C5 to protect the status of AMan, though JTR may have his own personal motives too.

With the removal of Kelly, geographically, not murderously, the situation was resolved for JTR and AMan, so JTR thus ended his murder spree.

For want of a better term, I would call JTR as a "situational psychopathic serial killer. " The controlled, cunning way he murdered the C5 speaks to this I would say.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

I think of JTR's obvious murderous psychopathy as "situational", that he specifically murdered the C5 to protect the status of AMan, though JTR may have his own personal motives too.

With the removal of Kelly, geographically, not murderously, the situation was resolved for JTR and AMan, so JTR thus ended his murder spree.

For want of a better term, I would call JTR as a "situational psychopathic serial killer. " The controlled, cunning way he murdered the C5 speaks to this I would say.

I have no idea what AMan is, but you would agree that he wasn't schizophrenic or about to have a mental breakdown and need to be hospitalised?

[mpriestnall]

I have no idea what AMan is, but you would agree that he wasn't schizophrenic or about to have a mental breakdown and need to be hospitalised?

Sorry PI for not being clear. AMan is occasionally used as a short-hand for "Astrakhan Man", the
man witnessed by George Hutchinson.

My answer is based on my research into my candidate for JTR. To be clear, I also have a separate candidate
for Astrakhan Man as well as for Kelly.

My candidate for JTR led a normal life and would have related in a conventional and recognized normal way to his family, friends, employees (he had a successful business) etc. He was no doubt would have been seen as a respectable pillar of his local circle. He served at one time as a churchwarden!

So no, to the best of my knowledge he wasn't schizophrenic or ever hospitalized for severe mental illness.

I would describe his murder spree (the C5) as probably as a one-off instance of him expressing his psychopathy to solve a particular problem such a blackmail attempt from the C5, or more likely from a sub-set of the C5.

After Kelly was relocated, JTR would have carried on his existence as before.

[PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR 1]

Sorry PI for not being clear. AMan is occasionally used as a short-hand for "Astrakhan Man", the
man witnessed by George Hutchinson.

My answer is based on my research into my candidate for JTR. To be clear, I also have a separate candidate
for Astrakhan Man as well as Kelly.

My JTR led a normal life and would have related in a conventional and recognized normal way to his family, friends, employees (he had a successful business) etc. He was no doubt would have been seen as a respectable pillar of his local circle. He served at one time as a churchwarden!

So no, to the best of my knowledge he wasn't schizophrenic or ever hospitalized for severe mental illnesses.

I would describe his murder spree (the C5) as probably as a one-off instance of him expressing his psychopathy to solve a particular problem such a blackmail attempt from a sub-set of the C5.

After Kelly was relocated, JTR would have carried on his normal existence as before.

I did see your mention of 'Astrakhan Man' before and guessed what it meant, but didn't recognise the abbreviation of it.

The blackmail theory looks worryingly reminiscent of the Joseph Gorman yarn, first publicised in 1973, with Kelly the ringleader of an attempted blackmail.