Did the killer burn his hat?

[DVV]

From The Times, 12 November:

"The police (...) discovered in the fire place the charred rim (...) of a woman's felt hat, as well as a piece of burnt velvet."

One first question here: how could they distinguish a woman's hat from a man's, after it has been burnt by a "fierce" fire?

Abberline, at the inquest, will in fact not say that it was a woman's hat, as reported by the same newspaper, 13 November:

"There were portions of a woman's skirt and the rim of a hat in the grate", he said.

Now, we know that Maria Harvey left some garments in Mary's room: sheets, overcoat, bonnet...but no hat.
And Mary Kelly, as some reported it, was not in the habit of wearing a hat.
So can we reasonably think that the murderer burnt his (round? dark felt? wideawake?) hat before leaving Miller's court?
And if so, why? Because he knew he had been seen (by Cox, by Lewis, by Hutch ?)?
It's a pity that the police could not (or did not try to) determine which kind of hat it was...
Anyway the idea of the murderer burning it is interesting, if true.
I confess I did not read carefully all the threads about Mary, so sorry if all this has already been suggested and debated.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

Most Victorian men's hats were made of cloth of some description - I don't think wire brims were used in their construction.

[DVV]

Thanks Sam,
but I'm afraid I don't get your point, both because of my poor English and my poor knowledge of victorian hats.
When Abberline refers to a "rim" (or "brim") that means "bord", the part that has more resisted against fire, I guess.
Of course, if "wire brim" (there is something like this in the 12 Nov report) refers clearly to a woman's hat, you are right.
However, what about the fact that Abberline's words separate the hat (I mean: nothing about a woman's hat or a man's) from the woman's clothes, and that Harvey left a bonnet and not a hat in Mary's room?

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

Hi David,

Bonnets and hats are practically synonymous - so I wouldn't read too much into reports that may seem to confuse the two.

[DVV]

Hi Sam,
I don't want to split hairs, but isn't the rim that distinguish a hat from a bonnet?

Amitiés,
David

[DVV]

...and was there a wire brim in a bonnet?

[DVV]

...and does a bonnet have a wire brim?

[DVV]

Sorry for re-posting the same stuff - my connection in my remote and barbaric country!
Anyway, "wire brim" seems the part which has resisted the flames.
Can it be part of Harvey's bonnet?
I don't think so.
So we may have a hat - an accessory which, it seems, doesn't appear in Mary's wardrobe.
Why not the murderer's hat?

[Observer]

Hi David

The obvious question. Why would the killer want to burn his hat? Bear in mind that he needed to go out into the cold wet and windy night.

all the best

Observer

[Sam Flynn]

So we may have a hat - an accessory which, it seems, doesn't appear in Mary's wardrobe.
Why not the murderer's hat?

Because men's hats tended not to have wire brims. As far as I can recall, there's nothing stopping it from being Harvey's bonnet.

[DVV]

Because men's hats tended not to have wire brims. As far as I can recall, there's nothing stopping it from being Harvey's bonnet.

And if a bonnet tends to have wire brims, you will be right...though Abberline, at the inquest, talked of the rim of a hat...
Anyway Sam, data and pictures of hats are scattered on various threads, and it would be good to gather all that stuff.
As an example, I recently noticed that a wideawake hat can have different shapes.

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

And if a bonnet tends to have wire brims, you will be right...though Abberline, at the inquest, talked of the rim of a hat...

Fair point, although I've always taken that to mean a "wire" rim. A cloth rim would have been no more likely to survive the blaze than the cloth "body" of the hat.

[DVV]

You see Sam, if you can dismiss the bonnet (burnt, maybe, but with nothing remaining of it), then we could make experiences and burn different hats...
As a scientific, I guess you will enjoy it (and me as a mazdean!)...
In short, what remains of a LVP 's (man) hat after it has been burnt.
And at least, JtR throwing his cape into the grate, let alone a fact, would be...what a sight!

Amitiés,
David

[Sam Flynn]

It's just occurred to me that this thread should really belong under "Victims/Mary Jane Kelly", rather than "General Discussion", as its topic is specific to the Kelly crime scene.

[DVV]

Certainly so, Sam.
I may have been reluctant to open a new thread about Kelly, since there are already too many.
However, all depended on how the discussion would go. It could simply be about hats (and so, general discussion was quite fitting), it could also be about suspects - eager to get rid of their hat, since they knew they had been seen with Mary: Blotchy, La Di Da, Wideawake Hat or Hutch.
Anyway, thanks for your posts and objections. Now it seems to me a real possibility that the killer did burn his hat. Not a hard fact, put a possible deed.

Amitiés,
David