The Ripper & surgical skill

[Billy Bulger]

Hi everybody,

I know this is territory ploughed over several times but what is the current feeling regarding the Ripper and the likelihood that he had notable knowledge of the human anatomy? In other words, that he had medical/surgical training.
I came across a recent text which stated that many within the medical community of today who were familiar with the Ripper crimes believe he had no 'skill with a knife'. I, myself am a layman regarding this but it certainly seems like a fair assumption that someone who could locate the organs listed (if thats what he intended to do) -and do it with such apparent precision- was indeed someone with an understanding of dissection.
To conclude, who reading this feels the Ripper could have been a medically trained man?

[Sam Flynn]

To conclude, who reading this feels the Ripper could have been a medically trained man?

If he was, then he didn't show much evidence of any medical or surgical skill in his murders, which come across as crude butchery. This is perhaps reflected in contemporary medics' opinions that a butcher or horse-slaughterer might have possessed the knowledge to commit the crimes. If, that is, any particular "knowledge" were needed at all.

[Ben]

Hi Billy,

I, myself am a layman regarding this but it certainly seems like a fair assumption that someone who could locate the organs listed (if thats what he intended to do)

I've highlighted the operative phrase here. It's only a fair assumption if the killer was deliberately targetting specific organs. If he was just rummaging around and extracting whatever looks interesting, it's a safer assumption that we're dealing with a relatively unskilled operator.

Best regards,
Ben

[Billy Bulger]

Hi Billy,



I've highlighted the operative phrase here. It's only a fair assumption if the killer was deliberately targetting specific organs. If he was just rummaging around and extracting whatever looks interesting, it's a safer assumption that we're dealing with a relatively unskilled operator.

Best regards,
Ben

I see what you're saying Ben but it strikes me as unlikley that the Ripper was merely extracting at random. I dont mean to be graphic but its been noted several times that his attacks were brutal and bloody but the incisions made were meticulous and apparently deliberate- unlike those made on Martha Tabram.
PS I'm basing my argument on the premise that The Ripper did not murder Tabram.

[Ben]

Hi Billy,

its been noted several times that his attacks were brutal and bloody but the incisions made were meticulous

A few contemporaty commentators thought so, but plenty more disagreed, and I'm not aware off-hand of anyone who used the word "incisions". Nor can I envisage any sort of "deliberate incision" would result in only a portion of the bladder being extracted, as occured in the Chapman case. All in all, I don't consider it remotely unlikely that the killer was "extracting at random" - quite the opposite.

Best regards,
Ben

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I see what you're saying Ben but it strikes me as unlikley that the Ripper was merely extracting at random. I dont mean to be graphic but its been noted several times that his attacks were brutal and bloody but the incisions made were meticulous and apparently deliberate- unlike those made on Martha Tabram.
PS I'm basing my argument on the premise that The Ripper did not murder Tabram.

I agree. He could have done a number of things, like cutting off his victims' breasts while working on crime scenes on the street (which wouldn't require that much more time or effort compared to digging inside the body) but he didn't.
Personally, I believe the womb was the main target since that area was specifically attacked and it was missing in two cases. That doesn't mean, however, that any surgical skill was needed. As has been said before, a butcher or a slaughterer would have the sufficient anatomical knowledge.

That said, although the mutilations appear to be methodical and rather clearly directed on certain parts of the body, the mutilations also show signs of random hacking as well as improvising in connection with taking of the organs, since other organs or body parts were taken as well apart from the womb. So it's a strange mixure of disorganized mutilating on one hand and rational, methodical intent on the other.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

He could have done a number of things, like cutting off his victims' breasts while working on crime scenes on the street which wouldn't require that much more time or effort.

You've obviously forgotten how fiddly it is to get a woman's top off, Glenn. I almost have myself, but at least I can still just about dredge up the fact that my "victims" didn't wear multiple layers of clothing and, as far as I recall, no stays or corsets either. I also recall that we tended to avoid public highways, where the police or public might interrupt us, and where we had a little more time to enjoy ourselves.

[Jon Guy]

You've obviously forgotten how fiddly it is to get a woman's top off, Glenn. I almost have myself, .

I found that wearing the correct size helps.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

You've obviously forgotten how fiddly it is to get a woman's top off, Glenn. I almost have myself, but at least I can still just about dredge up the fact that my "victims" didn't wear multiple layers of clothing and, as far as I recall, no stays or corsets either. I also recall that we tended to avoid public highways, where the police or public might interrupt us, and where we had a little more time to enjoy ourselves.

Firstly, he didn't fiddle with his hands but used a knife, and ripped through all the material in a jagged manner.
I don't know about you, but that certainly hasn't been my modus operandi in connection with female contacts.

Secondly, he had no problem with ripping apart the lower part of the layer of clothing or underwear (se Eddowes) - it was quite an extensive textile fortress he managed to cut open with the knife without any real problem.
It's just that he for some reason stopped just at the bottom of the rib cage. No doubt it wouldn't have been more problematic for him to do the same thing or continue further upwards if he wanted to. The layer weren't more extensive there than it was on the lower part of the body.

Take a look at the sketch of Eddowes on Foster's plan of Mitre Square and see all the stuff he managed to rip open in this short amount of time. The breast area wouldn't make any difference.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

I found that wearing the correct size helps.

Ah, that's Casebook all over - not just a message board, but a lifestyle guide as well! Thanks, Jon

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I'm just waiting for Trinny and Susanna to pop in.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

Firstly, he didn't fiddle with his hands but used a knife, right, and ripped through all the material in a jagged manner.

The clothing is much looser around the abdomen than it is at chest level, and hence easier to deal with. And he wouldn't have avoided using his hands, unless he stood at arm's length and used his knife like a stylus on a seismograph. He must have gripped the fabric at some point, if only to move the clothing out of the way. Again, this is easier to do with a skirt - it's partly why they're designed that way - than with a blouse.

Attacking the abdomen was emphatically the easier and more obvious option - it also had the benefit of being the most messy, and possibly Jack got off on that too. Slicing off the breasts wouldn't have the effect of liberating the contents of the thorax, and excavating the chest cavity was not something one could easily achieve under the time-pressured conditions of a back yard or a public square.

[Glenn Lauritz Andersson]

I disagree, Sam.
Besides, I clearly recall that it was mentioned that the clothing was ripped up with a knife as well as the body. The fabric was ripped open in a jagged manner, just like he did on the throat and on the body.

All the best

[Sam Flynn]

Hi Glenn,

I clearly recall that it was mentioned that the clothing was ripped up with a knife as well as the body. The fabric was ripped open in a jagged manner, just like he did on the throat and on the body.

I'd observe that he didn't cut Nichols' or Chapman's skirts, so clearly his tactic there was to lift or throw the lower garments out of the way to expose the abdomen. He may have initially done so with Eddowes, for all we know, only to discover that she had more layers than an onion - only resorting to cut through the remainder of her nether-garments after moving the top layers out of the way.

[Dan Norder]

I have to agree with Sam here. The abdomen would have been plenty more accessible to the killer than the chest based upon the way clothing the victims wore fit, knife or no knife. The idea that the Ripper could have just as easily cut off their breasts instead doesn't pass a basic reality check.

But then anything Glenn argues here is tainted by his strange desire to try to make Mary Kelly be something other than a Ripper victim. I think his rationale in this thread goes something like this: Kelly was alone in a room mostly undressed, the killer did attack her chest unlike the fully clothed Ripper victims found on the street, and because we know that she wasn't a Ripper victim the Ripper obviously only attacked the abdomen. His demanding that Tabram have nothing in common with the other Ripper murders probably also plays a major influence as well. It's just an example of forcing the facts to fit his conclusions instead of actually bothering to make solid conclusions based upon the evidence in the first place.