Practicality or madness?

[John G]

There are indeed other differences, John. The area in which the Ripper was active only contains clustered crime scenes: crime scenes at which most of the crime-related activity takes place, the encounter, attack, homicide and all the post-mortem mutilation. The area of Torso Man is much bigger because he separated the scene where he encountered, attacked, killed and did all of his post-mortem cutting and sawing. A clustered crime scene is indicative of an impulsive or disorganised killer, if you will; the one who separates these locations is “symptomatic” for an organised killer. Or at least, this is something that Vernon Geberth would tell you. He’s a retired NYPD Lt. Commander and has written a number of books on homicide investigations.

Thanks for this Frank. And I agree, the indications are that the Torso perpetrator waa organized and JtR disorganized.

[John G]

There is absolutely nothing hinting at the Ripper and the Torso killer preying on victims with different victimologies. Once we get a classification of a Torso victim, lo and behold: we have a prostitute!

Really, John - the two series have an encyclopedia of similarities. Itīs time that was acknowledged.

Aa you know, Christer, the depth of similarities this is something we disagree upon.

To list some of the dismiliarities.

JtR: disorganized. Operated within a very small geographical area, took extreme risks with his street atlacks, not distracted by witnesses.

Torso perpetrator: Organized. Probably abducted victims, operated over a much wider area, took steps to prevent victims being identified, avoided possible witnesses.

JtR: mutilator, who progressed into an eviscerator.

Torso perpetrator: dismemberer, only known to have eviscerated one victim. Possibly murdering in order to dismemberer, which would be consistent with an offensive/ defensive dismemberer profile.

JtR: some indications of lack of skill, i.e. Kelly murder scene. Dr Phillips clearly disagreed in respect of Chapman, but his conclusions are controversial.

Torso perpetrator: skilled, at least as regards the dismemberment process.

JtR: psychologically wedded to a very small geographical area, and probably lived within the location. Not prepared to extend the area in which he targeted victims even when it would have benefited him to do so. Probably didn' t have transport.

Torso perpetrator: Active over much wider area, so not geographically constrained in the same way. Almost certainly had transport. Epicentre of activities close to the Battersea area, suggesting that he may have lived around this location.

[John G]

Good question, Abby. I'll have to put some thought into that one.

On another note, I was reading a thread from years ago discussing the torsos and AP Wolfe made a rather interesting statement to think about whether or not one believes in a single killer or more than one for both series. He said of the Ripper and torsoman, "So while Jack killed one victim, the Embankment killer made many kills from one victim. just look at the reports that flow in as the body parts are found, from all points of the metropolis the police and surgeons are busy, and so is the press."


I've been thinking about the cases in this point of view, lately. It gives a new perspective of looking at them.

In relation to the Torso victims, do you think there are indications of an intention seeker, who was trying to taunt the police? For instance, body parts scattered over wide area, like "pieces of a puzzle", The Whitehall Torso deposited in the police building, Pinchin Street deposited in the heart of Ripper territory close to the anniversary of Chapman' death.

[Harry D]

yes interesting jerry!
perhaps the ripper did the same in a way. killing the victims close together in time. writing grafitti and letters (i lean toward dear boss, saucy jack and from hell as well as gsg as being authentic)
and sending a kidny to lusk to het the same effect.

Were there any letters (hoax or otherwise) claiming responsibility for both series?

[Michael W Richards]

This is a very interesting point, Jerry. With an offensive dismemberer, which I believe relates to the Torso perpetrator, dismemberment may be the primary purpose of the murder (Rutty, 2017). This creates problems for the single killer theory, as the C5 murders show mo inclination to dismember.

There are, of course, numerous other differences. Frank's map highlights just how small the area in which JtR was active actually was, i.e. in comparison to the much wider area where the Torso perpetrator, if indeed there was a single perpetrator, was active. I can't think of any rationale explanation as to why, if there was a single perpetrator, that the JtR-style murders would be confined to such a small area.

Nor are there any other examples of a perpetrator alternating between dismemberment, and JtR-type street slayings.

Victimology has been referred to. Unfortunately, only one Torso victim was identified. Im respect of JtR, I don't think he targeted a particular class of victim, but merely victims who were vulnerable, and therefore not in a position to put up much resistance, i.e. intoxicated, seriously ill, possibly asleep.

The title of this thread can be addressed quite simply....Practicality, taking someone you kill to somewhere private, or killing them in private, where you can spend days cutting off the bits and pieces then take individual parts around town to get rid of them discreetly...vs..Madness, going out to find a weak sheep among the night flock, killing them wherever, so you can kill them and get access to cut into the dead bodies and perhaps take some contents with you. I agree on many points above John, in particular the conclusion.

Polly and Annie were both weak sheep on the respective nights. Drunk, and Ill. Quick to subdue.

[John G]

The title of this thread can be addressed quite simply....Practicality, taking someone you kill to somewhere private, or killing them in private, where you can spend days cutting off the bits and pieces then take individual parts around town to get rid of them discreetly...vs..Madness, going out to find a weak sheep among the night flock, killing them wherever, so you can kill them and get access to cut into the dead bodies and perhaps take some contents with you. I agree on many points above John, in particular the conclusion.

Polly and Annie were both weak sheep on the respective nights. Drunk, and Ill. Quick to subdue.

Yes, I agree, Micheal, very well put. It's also worth pointing out that the Whitehall victim may have been killed around 6 weeks before the body parts were disposed of, which further supports the argument that you have made.

[Fisherman]

Thanks for this Frank. And I agree, the indications are that the Torso perpetrator waa organized and JtR disorganized.

If so, they were one organized and one disorganized killer, who merely coincidentally:

-cut their victims abdomens open from sternum to groin
-took out uteri
-took out hearts
-cut away abdominal walls in large sections of flesh
-took away colon sections
-stole rings from their victims fingers
-killed prostitutes
-applied no physical torture to their victims
-were deemed skilful with the knife
-roamed the same city
-worked in overlapping times

Isnīt it odd that two so VERY different killers, of two so DIAMETRICALLY opposed mindsets and mental capacities would do the exact same things to their victims?

One really has to wonder what the reason for this may be.

[Fisherman]

Aa you know, Christer, the depth of similarities this is something we disagree upon.

Take a look at my list in the above post. What is it that you donīt agree with?

To list some of the dismiliarities.

JtR: disorganized. Operated within a very small geographical area, took extreme risks with his street atlacks, not distracted by witnesses.

Torso perpetrator: Organized. Probably abducted victims, operated over a much wider area, took steps to prevent victims being identified, avoided possible witnesses.

JtR: mutilator, who progressed into an eviscerator.

Torso perpetrator: dismemberer, only known to have eviscerated one victim. Possibly murdering in order to dismemberer, which would be consistent with an offensive/ defensive dismemberer profile.

JtR: some indications of lack of skill, i.e. Kelly murder scene. Dr Phillips clearly disagreed in respect of Chapman, but his conclusions are controversial.

Torso perpetrator: skilled, at least as regards the dismemberment process.

JtR: psychologically wedded to a very small geographical area, and probably lived within the location. Not prepared to extend the area in which he targeted victims even when it would have benefited him to do so. Probably didn' t have transport.

Torso perpetrator: Active over much wider area, so not geographically constrained in the same way. Almost certainly had transport. Epicentre of activities close to the Battersea area, suggesting that he may have lived around this location.

Once again, and forever if I have to: No difference that is not conclusive, be it one or a thousand such differences, dissolves the fact that these two series involve similarities that are extremely rare and very odd. Once there are such inclusions, the game is up.

[Fisherman]

The title of this thread can be addressed quite simply....Practicality, taking someone you kill to somewhere private, or killing them in private, where you can spend days cutting off the bits and pieces then take individual parts around town to get rid of them discreetly...vs..Madness, going out to find a weak sheep among the night flock, killing them wherever, so you can kill them and get access to cut into the dead bodies and perhaps take some contents with you. I agree on many points above John, in particular the conclusion.

Polly and Annie were both weak sheep on the respective nights. Drunk, and Ill. Quick to subdue.

Havenīt you caught up yet? The cutting was done in close proximity to the death of the victims timewise. The creature you are conjuring up has nothing at all to do with the Torso killer. Once again, you tell us that your personal gut feeling is that the two killers are not the same. Try that on a jury.

This is what the criticism amounts to, overall - people have for 132 years allowed their own prejudice and preconceived notions prevail over the evidence.

Can somebody, anybody, please take the list from post 457 and - with a straight face - explain to me how all of these things may have COINCIDENTALLY dovetailed? Of course you canīt. And wonīt.

[jerryd]

In relation to the Torso victims, do you think there are indications of an intention seeker, who was trying to taunt the police? For instance, body parts scattered over wide area, like "pieces of a puzzle", The Whitehall Torso deposited in the police building, Pinchin Street deposited in the heart of Ripper territory close to the anniversary of Chapman' death.

John,

I feel September 8th had some significance for the torso killer. Whether it was a competition of sorts with the east end killer or they were the same man I have yet to determine in my mind. I also feel the Whitehall victim was killed and dismembered in the vault or somewhere in the basement of Scotland Yard.

[jerryd]

Yes, I agree, Micheal, very well put. It's also worth pointing out that the Whitehall victim may have been killed around 6 weeks before the body parts were disposed of, which further supports the argument that you have made.

I don't discount the findings of Dr. Neville who examined the first piece of the body (the Pimilico arm). He stated death was 3 to four days prior to his examination of the arm on September 12th. The other parts were subject to decay for much longer and to me would have been more difficult to determine a date of death. So if the victim in which the arm belonged to died around September 8th or 9th, so be it for the rest of the matching body parts.

[jerryd]

Were there any letters (hoax or otherwise) claiming responsibility for both series?

Yes Harry. As soon as I get time I can post a few. Gotta run for now. One letter comes to mind saying something along the lines of, I will continue in the east end and my pal in the west end. There were also letters not taking responsibility for a torso saying he would not make such a botch of it. Referring to Pinchin torso, IIRC.

[Michael W Richards]

Havenīt you caught up yet? The cutting was done in close proximity to the death of the victims timewise. The creature you are conjuring up has nothing at all to do with the Torso killer. Once again, you tell us that your personal gut feeling is that the two killers are not the same. Try that on a jury.

Ok, and just to Try getting a conviction with " this is what I see". As for the cutting, are you now saying that the disarticulations..all of them, were done immediately after death? As you know that is pure speculation Fisherman.

This is what the criticism amounts to, overall - people have for 132 years allowed their own prejudice and preconceived notions prevail over the evidence.

Agreed, whole heartedly. Starting with senior contemporary police who had no idea what happened and just didnt want to admit to that or intentionally mislead the press, with contemporary investigators who suggested a group of women before proving solving even 1 crime, historians who read the cases with a goal of finding the man who killed the Canonical Group,... again, instead of just solving 1 of them first,... and modern day theorists who not only buy into the unproven Canonical Group but want to take it leaps forward by pre-supposing a much large number. Preconceptions all.

Ill take a stab at 456 now.

[Abby Normal]

some traits of a dis organized killer are:
overt mental illness
attacking, killing and leaving the victim in one location
disheveled appearance
blitz style attack where killer first encounters victim
often uses weapon of something found at the scene
little or no planning
usually apprehended relatively soon
careless with leaving clues
broad daylight attacks
poor communication skills

dosnt sound like the ripper to me at all. the ripper was anything but dis organized, just like the torsoman.

anyway people need to take these fbi labeling and profiling stuff with a grain if salt.

[Michael W Richards]

If so, they were one organized and one disorganized killer, who merely coincidentally:

1. cut their victims abdomens open from sternum to groin
Liz Strides killer didn't, Marthas didn't, Emmas didn't , and you cant know in exactly what fashion the Torso were cut, because it cant be proven.
2. took out uteri
Take out, or take away? Pollys uterus wasn't taken out, nor was Liz's, nor was Alices, nor was Marthas, or Emmas. Marys was left behind.
3. took out hearts
shall I bother listing the many, many unsolved unfortunate kills where this didn't apply? These lists are too long to keep typing over and over.
4. cut away abdominal walls in large sections of flesh
2 canonicals.
5. took away colon sections
Pollys didn't, Annies didn't, Liz;s ddin, Kates didn't, Marys didn't...again the lists...
6. stole rings from their victims fingers
1 canonical
7.killed prostitutes
Just 2 Canonical victims known to have been soliciting at the time.
8. applied no physical torture to their victims
Liz bled to death, surely not outside the realm of torture. Marys face was slashed and her arms cut defensively.
9.were deemed skilful with the knife
Annies killer was deemed skillful and knowledgably cut, some say Kates killer was also. No evidence that was the case in any Canonical, and most of the other unsolved cases.
10.roamed the same city
One killed within 1 square mile of East London, are you aware how many square miles London was at the time?
11.worked in overlapping times
Torsos were found 10 years earlier, and during the Fall of Terror.

Isnīt it odd that two so VERY different killers, of two so DIAMETRICALLY opposed mindsets and mental capacities would do the exact same things to their victims?

As you see, they didn't do the same things. Clearly. Obviously

One really has to wonder what the reason for this may be.

The only thing that makes me wonder is why you keep saying things are alike when they most clearly are not.

I know whats coming next...Ted Bundy killed different ways, the Golden State killer did too, and the Freeway killer, ..what youll omit is that Dahmer did the same things with the same kinds of men, Gacy did it repeatedly the same way. BTK did the same things, Zodiak did the same things, Son of Sam did the same things, in Canada Pickford did the same things, HH Holmes did the same things...I can give you a list of killers who never really changed anything dramatically, the same kinds of victims, the same kinds of activities.

And did the first killers I mentioned really change what they did, or rather where they did it?

You might want to check the Lindahl cases out too. Serial killers very often change very little of what they do, who they choose, and how they go about it.