Practicality or madness?

[Abby Normal]

Hello Fish,

Might be repeating myself here, and feel free to tell me to shuddap if I am, but if the two cases are linked by one perpetrator, don't you find it strange that we have one series spanning quite sparingly across sixteen years, while another was done in a twelve week spate? It could be there was a trigger in the killer's life that we'll never know about but I was wondering as to your thoughts on that?

Hi harry
my two cents-first of all IMHO the ripper series was about a year spate ending with McKenzie-so thats spread out a bit more. Also, both series seem to have escalated in the year 1888, an interesting coincidence. not only in number of victims but in the odd and shocking public displays.
Even more telling to me both series seem to end the same time (and location)with pinchin and McKenzie-an extraordinary coincidence to me.

[seanr]

good post John
And lets not forget the Tottenham torso of 1884, whos remains were deposited in the street in front of a heavily patrolled building and whose head was also found bearing strikingly similar damage as was done to eddowes-a clear and strong link to the ripper series IMHO.

Do we have a source to the facial injuries on the 1884 victim being similar to Kate? - I've tried to find what you are referring to and drawn a blank, I'm afraid.

The casebook essay on this case states:

A skull with flesh still adhering to it, as well as a large piece of flesh from the thighbone, were discovered.

The description of a skull with flesh adhering to it, tends to suggest much more severe damage or more advanced decay than was the case with Kate.

[seanr]

34/ Kentish Town Child Murder, November 1887

A man was in the school-grounds in Leighton Grove, when he discovered the trunk of a fully developed male child. Police were called to the scene and a search in the neighbouring grounds resulted in the legs, hands and feet were found. They were all skilfully carved from the body, and this is now a case of child murder.

From http://deathonmydoorstep.com/index.p.../03/04/camden/

The 'Death on my Doorstep' site lists intriguing cases. I haven't found another source for this case - but the 'skilfully carved from the body' point stands out. I was able to follow up on the Euston Square mystery mentioned on the same page, which is both an intriguing case involving a lodging house and that at least gives some credence to the cases listed on the page.

We seem to confidently state that there is no case of more than one eviscerating murder operating in one city at one time, yet there is some evidence with Kate Webster and the at least one murder behind the torso murders, that between the years 1870 and 1890 in London there were at least two.

[Abby Normal]

Do we have a source to the facial injuries on the 1884 victim being similar to Kate? - I've tried to find what you are referring to and drawn a blank, I'm afraid.

The casebook essay on this case states:
The description of a skull with flesh adhering to it, tends to suggest much more severe damage or more advanced decay than was the case with Kate.

hi sean
jerry dunlop, researcher exraordinaire provided the details of tje tottenham head/ face injuries on this thread or another so perhaps he can point you in the right direction. what stands out is the face was mutilated like eddowes- part if ear cut off, face gashed and nose cut off. striking coincidence in my book.

[jerryd]

hi sean
jerry dunlop, researcher exraordinaire provided the details of tje tottenham head/ face injuries on this thread or another so perhaps he can point you in the right direction. what stands out is the face was mutilated like eddowes- part if ear cut off, face gashed and nose cut off. striking coincidence in my book.

East London Press,

November 8,1884

[jerryd]

I also found evidence of another possible (I stress the word possible) torso cut up in 1890.

Evening News and Post

September 29, 1890

[jerryd]

And this one in 1894. The unusual discovery of a skull and human hands were found a few blocks from where the leg was found 4 years earlier in my previous post.

Echo
February 8, 1894

[Abby Normal]

hi sean
jerry dunlop, researcher exraordinaire provided the details of tje tottenham head/ face injuries on this thread or another so perhaps he can point you in the right direction. what stands out is the face was mutilated like eddowes- part if ear cut off, face gashed and nose cut off. striking coincidence in my book.

hi jerry
thanks! for some reason i thought the ear was also cut off the tottenham head?

[Fisherman]

From http://deathonmydoorstep.com/index.p.../03/04/camden/

The 'Death on my Doorstep' site lists intriguing cases. I haven't found another source for this case - but the 'skilfully carved from the body' point stands out. I was able to follow up on the Euston Square mystery mentioned on the same page, which is both an intriguing case involving a lodging house and that at least gives some credence to the cases listed on the page.

We seem to confidently state that there is no case of more than one eviscerating murder operating in one city at one time, yet there is some evidence with Kate Webster and the at least one murder behind the torso murders, that between the years 1870 and 1890 in London there were at least two.

I think that what has been said is that there are no other cases of simultaneously working eviscerating serial killers in the same town, Sean. What I have personally also said is that if somebody should find two such creatures after an extensive search, that will still only go to prove how unlikely such a thing is. We can all easily understand that it is not per se impossible - it is not impossible with seventy-three eviscerating serial killers cohabitating in a village of a hundred people.
The point is that although it is possible as such, history tells us that it is unlikely in the extreme. And once we add that we need the two eviscerators to have done the same rare things to their victims, it becomes even more incredible that we would be able to find any examples. It borders on a practical impossibility.

I found the skilful cutting you refer to, applied on a seemingly newborn, fully developed child. Although it says nothing about disjointing the limbs, it is always interesting to see cases of cutting skill mentioned. It happens every now and then (the beforementioned Danny Rolling, a drifter and killer, was a also said to have cut his victims up very skilfully), but it remains uncommon nevertheless. And the Torso killer took the skill to levels that are even rarer. Many times the skill referred to has to do with the cutter applying his cuts to places where the parts will readily separate, but in the torso cases there was also the factor of very clean cutting with no jadedness at all and with straight angles and so on. And this means that parallels will be hard in the extreme to come by.

I have already given my thoughts on the Webster case in a previous post.

[Fisherman]

I also found evidence of another possible (I stress the word possible) torso cut up in 1890.

Evening News and Post

September 29, 1890

"Clean cut out of the socket"! One has to say that such a remark adds to my interest.

[John G]

Hi John.

With the Rainham torso we also had parts dumped in Regents Canal and fished up near the Pancras Lock and Midland Dock Basin. The lock keeper at Pancras Lock felt the body parts may have been deposited in the canal near the Warwick Lock, Paddington and when the lock gates were opened they flowed down the canal to his area.

Hi Jerry,

Thanks for this. Warwick Castle, Paddington, which is within the Little Venice area is 3.6 miles from Whitehall. St Pancras Lock is 3.8 miles from Whitehall.

[Sam Flynn]

Moreover, you also have to consider the fact that the clear indications are that we are looking at rare forms of dismemberment, i.e. offensive dismemberment in each case.

Indeed, but the approach was rather different. The legs and arms were cut off in the other cases, but the Pinchin Street torso still had its arms. Why would a practised Torso Killer leave the arms on? I'd have thought that the body would have been easier to conceal and dispose of it had been cut into more portable pieces, something which the perpetrator of the more "western" atrocities would have known from practical experience.

[John G]

Regarding the issue of a forensic link and the 1887-1889 cases. Trevor Marriott's expert, Dr Biggs, has of course essentially ruled this out. However, surely we already knew this. There's obviously no hard forensics, such as tool mark analysis or DNA evidence, which links the crimes, although that's also true of the C5 Whitechapel murders, but few people seem to think they were killed by different perpetrators.

Nonetheless, unlike the C5 we do have a quasi forensic connection. Thus, all four Torso victims were neatly disarticulated. This is of considerable importance when you consider that of the three possible modes of dismemberment-disarticulation, transaction of bone via chopping, transaction if bone via sawing-this is the rarest form: 16% of New York City cases 1990-2006 (Fridie, 2007).
See also Porta and Cattaneo, 2017: " The dismemberment of a corpse is fairly rare forensic medicine...in this context, the disarticulation of body parts is even rarer."

Moreover, "Pathologists know through experience that removing an arm or leg through the joints is technically demanding and disarticulating a head through the vertical spine is even harder." (Rutty, 2017 ).

[Michael W Richards]

Alternatively, and more likely IMHO, he lived comparatively close by and might even have had help in carrying the body to the railway arches.

I think Sam that there are instances like this where it does appear that 2 men could have been, and would have been needed. I just had a thought...if 2 people could be working together on the Torso murders, might that be a couple...and might the objective be financial...the organs they keep?

[Michael W Richards]

This thread is titled to indicate we are looking for signs whether things were done for practical purposes, vs just little voices in the head. In the Torso murders we can safely surmise that at least a part of the reason for any dismemberment was practical. Which has a cool calm and collected person or persons doing what they did. Something horrendous, but really done to manage the afterloads. Im not sure whether this kind of killer is even worse than the one that cant control what he does because of a misfunctioning brain, but he's close to being.

Kates severed colon section placed between her body and arm....her facial cuts...Marys thighs stripped of flesh....her breast under her head...definitely not practical acts. Serving no discernible purpose. Yet what if in Kates case the cuts to the face were a practical way to send a message to anyone who sees her in death, and the colon section just annoying and therefore removed and placed out of the way. Im bringing these points up to address the fact that there appears to madness as the driving force in only some of the Canonicals, and not so much in the Torso murders. Practicality can be found in seemingly unexplainable situations, but for sheer madness..that is killing strangers and gutting them right there on the spot...we have few likely matches.

Matching these kills by area, cuts, skill level, corroborating police/press speculation, ...all relevant, but WHY isn't being addressed. Why may well be Practical.