Practicality or madness?

[Trevor Marriott]

Same as the ripper-ruse used to get victims to a location where he wanted them.

If the ripper was prowling the streets looking for a would be victim such as a woman prostituting herself. It would be the woman that would take him to a location which she knew and not as you suggest.

https://www.trevormarrriott.co.uk

[MK114]

I will not propose that I am an expert on these matters. I will also say I have no doubts there are numerous members on this site with excellent knowledge on these cases.

However I will point out the statement of blows to the temple in the torso killers case. As opposed to the strangulation used by JTR.

While I agree that a killers method may change over a period of time. What we do know is that JTR only used strangulation when first attacking his victims.

The torso killer and JTR may be the same person but imo that is a glaring contradiction in the M.O. of the murders.

MK114

[Curious Cat]

hi curious

I forgot the name of the museum, Fish probably knows it-but it was in London and closed the venus exhibit in 1873.

What is important to realize is that the wax museums were predominantly visited by the working class, and so we would for example have had quite a number of Whitechapel dwellers who were versed in anatomy. At Louis Kahn´s museum (the first to get closed after the law about obscenity had been driven through, and it was not just the Venus that was disallowed, it was all of the waxworks. The prosecutor asked for and was granted permission to smash the models himself), there were exhibition objects that were solely to be seen by professionals such as doctors, but it transpired that anybody who chipped in a little more money could take a peak. The go to book on all things wax is Joanna Ebensteins fantastic work from two or three years back. In it, she establishes that there was a period stretching for many, many decades during which there was always at least one anatomical Venus on display some place in London.
And if Jack the Ripper/the Torso killer did not visit such an exhibition - or all of them, numerous times - I will merrily eat my hat. I look silly in hats anyway.

I should've added that while I think the killer may have seen one or more anatomical Venus wax models it may not necessarily have been in London. I'm also minded to think the killer may have been drawn to Whitechapel rather than born and bred in the area so could have seen an exhibition elsewhere in Europe as well as or rather than London.

[Abby Normal]

If the ripper was prowling the streets looking for a would be victim such as a woman prostituting herself. It would be the woman that would take him to a location which she knew and not as you suggest.

https://www.trevormarrriott.co.uk

i know it may be a point to subtle to you Trevor, but its still the same thing-a ruse. Unless of course your suggesting the ripper victims knew before hand they were leading the ripper to a nice secluded space so they could be murdered. lol

[Trevor Marriott]

nothing delusional about facts trevor, which is all I listed.

I hate having to keep proving you wrong, but you did say this which is not true

"except that all the police and medical experts said the torso victims were a series killed by the same man"

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Abby Normal]

I will not propose that I am an expert on these matters. I will also say I have no doubts there are numerous members on this site with excellent knowledge on these cases.

However I will point out the statement of blows to the temple in the torso killers case. As opposed to the strangulation used by JTR.

While I agree that a killers method may change over a period of time. What we do know is that JTR only used strangulation when first attacking his victims.

The torso killer and JTR may be the same person but imo that is a glaring contradiction in the M.O. of the murders.

MK114

hi Mk
several of the ripper victims had bruising to the face/head area which could be indicative of being punched and or some kind of blunt force trauma, as well as strangulation.
I think the ripper, and the torsoman (or torsoripper, if they were the same) may have used a combination of both ways, depending on the circs.

[MK114]

Hi Abby,

You are correct. Then my question would be was strangulation used in the torso murders?

Also was the bruising in the torso murders done post mortem?

MK114

[MK114]

I would also like to add that there was no attempt by the Ripper to dismember his victims and that he did not move his victims to a separate location.

Is it possible for two serial killers to operate in the same geo location? Absolutely however unlikely you may believe.

Respectfully
MK114

[MK114]

Trevor,

I do agree with many points you have made. I do sincerely respect your research and the fact you were a homicide investigator.

I was also a police officer and Detective for 18 years. It is an honor to be able to discuss these topics with you.

Respectfully
MK114

[etenguy]

except that all the police and medical experts said the torso victims were a series killed by the same man. lol.

and the connection of similarities with the ripper series is extensive:
same location
same time frame
same victimology
all damage post mortem mutilation
no sign of torture
no sign of sexual abuse
knife used
faces targeted
abdomen targeted and specifically flaps of flesh removed from the stomach.
cutting off and away of internal and external body parts
medical/anatomical knowledge displayed
unsolved
remains left in shocking and public locations
both series end same time

Hi Abby - happy new year (and to all on the Boards)

You and I often agree, but in this respect we are on different sides of the argument. I do not believe there is compelling evidence that the ripper and torso killer(s) were one and the same. In fact I find the differences between the two sets of murders far greater than any similarities. Also, I would disagree with your list of similarities, as follows:

same location - London, yes, but other than Pinchin Street the torso victims were not in Whitechapel The ripper was Whitechapel centric, torso killer was not.
same time frame - While the time frames overlapped, they were not the same. Depending on which torsos you include the torso killer started years earlier and finished later than the ripper who had a concentrated few months at the end of 1888.
same victimology - This is unknown - they were women of course, but whether or not the torsos were prostitutes is not clear since only one was ever identified.
all damage post mortem mutilation - Well, yes, but quite different post mortem treatment
no sign of torture - Agreed but lack of an extreme action is not necessarily what I would describe as a similiarity.
no sign of sexual abuse - Agreed
knife used - Yes, but in very different ways.
faces targeted - This is unknown since the heads of the majority of torso victims were never recovered - unless you are referring to the fact that they were beheaded and some ripper victims had cuts on their face - I see this as one of the defining differences between the two sets of murders - that the torso murderer was deliberately (and successfully) ensuring the victims remained unidentified. The ripper was not bothered about hiding who his victim's were.
abdomen targeted and specifically flaps of flesh removed from the stomach. - It is hard to say that the abdomen was targeted by the torso killer given the bodies were dismembered, but making flaps to gain access to the innards is a similiarity - but then how else might someone do that?
cutting off and away of internal and external body parts - The ripper took trophies while the torso killer dismembered for disposal - not the same thing I think.
medical/anatomical knowledge displayed - disputed.
unsolved - Yes (except I believe someone named Pierre knows who the ripper was).
remains left in shocking and public locations - Yes, but in very different ways.
both series end same time - I disagree - they overlap but the series have separate time frames.

I can't say the ripper and torso murders were definitely not all committed by the same hand, but I think the balance of probability tilts heavily towards separate murderers.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby - happy new year (and to all on the Boards)

You and I often agree, but in this respect we are on different sides of the argument. I do not believe there is compelling evidence that the ripper and torso killer(s) were one and the same. In fact I find the differences between the two sets of murders far greater than any similarities. Also, I would disagree with your list of similarities, as follows:

same location - London, yes, but other than Pinchin Street the torso victims were not in Whitechapel The ripper was Whitechapel centric, torso killer was not.
same time frame - While the time frames overlapped, they were not the same. Depending on which torsos you include the torso killer started years earlier and finished later than the ripper who had a concentrated few months at the end of 1888.
same victimology - This is unknown - they were women of course, but whether or not the torsos were prostitutes is not clear since only one was ever identified.
all damage post mortem mutilation - Well, yes, but quite different post mortem treatment
no sign of torture - Agreed but lack of an extreme action is not necessarily what I would describe as a similiarity.
no sign of sexual abuse - Agreed
knife used - Yes, but in very different ways.
faces targeted - This is unknown since the heads of the majority of torso victims were never recovered - unless you are referring to the fact that they were beheaded and some ripper victims had cuts on their face - I see this as one of the defining differences between the two sets of murders - that the torso murderer was deliberately (and successfully) ensuring the victims remained unidentified. The ripper was not bothered about hiding who his victim's were.
abdomen targeted and specifically flaps of flesh removed from the stomach. - It is hard to say that the abdomen was targeted by the torso killer given the bodies were dismembered, but making flaps to gain access to the innards is a similiarity - but then how else might someone do that?
cutting off and away of internal and external body parts - The ripper took trophies while the torso killer dismembered for disposal - not the same thing I think.
medical/anatomical knowledge displayed - disputed.
unsolved - Yes (except I believe someone named Pierre knows who the ripper was).
remains left in shocking and public locations - Yes, but in very different ways.
both series end same time - I disagree - they overlap but the series have separate time frames.

I can't say the ripper and torso murders were definitely not all committed by the same hand, but I think the balance of probability tilts heavily towards separate murderers.

HiEten
Same to you! No worries, im not 100% sold they were the same man either, just lean heavily they were.
To address your points:

same location - London, yes, but other than Pinchin Street the torso victims were not in Whitechapel The ripper was Whitechapel centric, torso killer was not.

London is a big city yet The two areas were walking distance away. not only that they overlap with pinchin smack dab in ripper territory. we don't know where torso victims were picked up-they could have been picked up in WC, brought back to his chop shop in the west and then dumped. the apparent difference in location could be due to the simple reason of torsorippers chop shop (and or cart, if he had one) not available-yet theurge is still there-and he has to kill in the streets and leave as is.

same time frame - While the time frames overlapped, they were not the same. Depending on which torsos you include the torso killer started years earlier and finished later than the ripper who had a concentrated few months at the end of 1888.

I think 73 was probably start of it, and as many serial killers do, operated in fits and starts, took many years off etc. both series escalate as they go along with the climax taking place with both in fall of 88. torsoripper was on a tear during this time. takes more time off then concludes with pinchin and Mackenzie. so not only do they overlap, the sequence played out in an escalation and end at same time. a very reasonable narrative IMHO for being the same man.

same victimology - This is unknown - they were women of course, but whether or not the torsos were prostitutes is not clear since only one was ever identified.

Most all middle aged women. Not girls, not old women. many serial killers make this distinction. Torso Elizabeth Jackson was a prostitute as were all the ripper victims. and why do you think none of the other torso victims were identified? because they were probably all prostitutes too and unfortunately no one cared enough about them to come forward and the lifestyle lends itself to difficulties in IDing.

all damage post mortem mutilation - Well, yes, but quite different post mortem treatment

not to me.it was basically the same. post mortem mutilation (which is incredibly rare in SKs to begin with). faces targeted-tottenhams face was mutilated almost exactly like eddowes. chapman Jackson and Kelly all had stomach flaps removed. all the torsos had mutilations above and beyond what was needed for dismemberment. sveral of ripper victims were neck cut so deeply they were nearly decapitated. the list goes on. and is deep neck cutting, removal of breasts, cutting flesh down to the bone really so different than dismemeberment? not to me it isn't. I think people get too caught upin the dismemberment-which again can be explained by the killers chop shop not being available so he has to kill on the street-and you cant easily dismember and or walk away with limbs/head when you kill on the street.

no sign of torture - Agreed but lack of an extreme action is not necessarily what I would describe as a similiarity.

[COLOR=#000000]no sign of sexual abuse - Agreed

[/QUOTE]
both of these are extremely common in serial killers-that neither exhibited these only point to another rather rare similarity.

knife used - Yes, but in very different ways.

not at all. both used to cut up, into and remove body parts.

faces targeted - This is unknown since the heads of the majority of torso victims were never recovered - unless you are referring to the fact that they were beheaded and some ripper victims had cuts on their face - I see this as one of the defining differences between the two sets of murders - that the torso murderer was deliberately (and successfully) ensuring the victims remained unidentified. The ripper was not bothered about hiding who his victim's were.[/COLOR

]

Tottenham had her face mutilated almost exactly like eddowes-ear cut off, face slashed nose cut off. both had a preoccupation with the face and head. and you cant easily decapitate when your forced to kill on the streets, nor take one away. to me the torso killer may have been trying to hinder ID, but it isn't obvious because one of the things to also aid in not iding is to get rid of and hide the bodies/parts so they are never found-something that torsoman definitely did NOT do. on the contrary he left in odd and shocking places, just like the ripper-no overt attempts to hide. and again, the heads probably had special significance to the killer, and he kept them when he felt like it, more so than deliberately trying to hide ID.

abdomen targeted and specifically flaps of flesh removed from the stomach. - It is hard to say that the abdomen was targeted by the torso killer given the bodies were dismembered, but making flaps to gain access to the innards is a similiarity - but then how else might someone do that?

single slice, a big single rip, an X, a big circle, hack/gouge away . bottom line there are abdominal mutliations in both with the flaps being so specific.and not only that-the vertical gash to the abdomen in both seems to be the first thing they did.

cutting off and away of internal and external body parts - The ripper took trophies while the torso killer dismembered for disposal - not the same thing I think.

they both cut up and removed internal and external body parts. the torso man almost certainly kept trophies. and while he probably did need to dismember in ease of removing from his place it also seems obvious he liked cutting up for pleasure.

medical/anatomical knowledge displayed - disputed.

not at all. the experts in both series say they saw skill in these areas.

remains left in shocking and public locations - Yes, but in very different ways.

due to the killers circs.

[COLOR=#000000]both series end same time - I disagree - they overlap but the series have separate time frames.

they both end with Mackenzie and pinchin-same time. that's an incredible coincidence to me.


all the apparent differences can easily explained by one simple circumstance of the killer. the torsos he had his chop shop available. the ripper victims he didn't.

[seanr]

I'd suggest caution in the belief the Torso cases were in the same locality as the Ripper, despite the obvious proximity of the Pinchin Street torso.

The torso in Whitehall Mystery was placed under the site for New Scotland Yard over the same weekend as the double event. As the arm had been found on the 11th of September but the evidence places the torso being put in the vault no earlier than the 29th. With the arm found in Southwark on the 29th (presumably placed there on or around the 28th?). Estimating the distance between Whitechapel and Norman Shaw Buildings today, it's about a fifty minute walk. Not prohibitively far, although one scarcely pictures the perpetrator traipsing across London on foot, carrying the torso. If all this is attributable to one man, with the two dump sites and two murders, he certainly had a busy weekend - and clearly had means to travel fair distances to accomplish his grim tasks. One might suggest a single perpetrator would need a fair amount of time on their hands over that particular weekend to accomplish all this.

The torso and body parts of the earlier Rainham Mystery may have been found in East London, but Rainham is nowhere near the East End. I don't know if this will help with a sense of scale, but in modern London fare zones, Whitechapel is Zone 2 and Rainham is all the way out in Zone 6.

[Abby Normal]

people do realize that serial killers can operate over large areas. even without the automobile. ex- carl panzram. hh holmes.
a few miles in one city is nothing. and actually points to one man.

[harry]

I still have difficulty in understanding how control,as Fisherman explains it,is relevent.It can be said that almost all murderers have control of their victims,before or after death,so comparing only one man's experience,and intimating it proves the ripper was the same sort of person,and is also the torso killer,because that person too exhibits the same characteristics is mind boggling.But then,most of us old posters are quite aware that most of what Fisherman claims is of similar content.

[Fisherman]

hi fish
I know im preaching to the choir here, and I totally agree with you- but I just want to follow up on one point you raise re abduction. Ive seen it mentioned on here from time to time that the torso victims were abducted and that's a difference with the ripper series. To me this is patently absurd. There is absolutely no evidence there were any abduction involved and on the face of it-minus any mobile kidnapping aid like a self enclosed automobile that practically all abductors use today-the logistics of it then with the torso killer pretty much rule out that idea IMHO.

no, the most reasonable explanation is that torsoman used a ruse to get his victims where he wanted them-to his bolt hole chop shop-probably under the guise of work/prostitution/pay and they willingly went with him there.

Same as the ripper-ruse used to get victims to a location where he wanted them.

Yes, I am as convinced as you are that a ruse was used. I only mentioned abduction since many people out here speak for it - it would open up a gap between the Ripper and the Torso killer, and that is a desire that is widespread...