Practicality or madness?

[Michael W Richards]

I am glad that my hubris has positive effects on your mood, Michael. Not least since my snide, insulting tone and sense of ownership of the truth makes it swing the other way. Still, one out of two ainīt bad, is it?

That's quite true Fisherman, any light at the end of the tunnel...

On the first point response, I would think a reasonable conclusion on the stomach flaps is that those specific murders might be linked by killer, not that the "series" are linked. The series totals 12 victims, how can 3 victims with similar injuries link 12 victims? Particularly since only 2 Canonicals have that type of injury.

Brief Opportunity is self explanatory, housing a body for days in a private secluded spot and working on taking it apart is not "brief". Speed kills and eviscerations in public access venues outdoors, by the very situation created, are.

[Fisherman]

So, informed one, how many victims can be proven to have the stomach flaps removed like Chapmans?

Three. And they are divided in to two (2) victims in the Ripper sereis and one (1) victim in the torso series. Which is why the inevitable conclusion comes up that the series are most probable connected. Once we add the other similarities it becomes a certainty beyond reasonable doubt. Regardless.

So enjoy this one in a trillion killer who changes his mind like a babies diapers, has no real specific goals, or needs, or desires, he just cuts or takes apart women, indoors in private, outdoors in public...he wants a uterus, he doesnt, he is ok with one cut, then he has to do so many ridiculous things with a knife that he doubles, triples, quadriples....minutes turn into hours into days,... the time he spends with victims. Do you have some explanation why we should presume Jack the Rippers victims were not chosen specifically for the brief opportunity, the specific desires he has, when the evidence in some cases suggests just that.

I donīt need any such explanation, because I think they WERE chosen for the brief opportunity and the specific desires the killer had. That, however, does not mean that the series is not compatible with the torso series. Believing so is not being able to see all the implications.

Your hubris makes me smile sometimes, your insights and conclusions seem in cases to directly contradict the evidence, more conventional law enforcement perspectives and databases. Which makes me shake my head. But its your snide insulting tone and sense of ownership of the truth that bugs me.

I am glad that my hubris has positive effects on your mood, Michael. Not least since my snide, insulting tone and sense of ownership of the truth makes it swing the other way. Still, one out of two ainīt bad, is it?

[Michael W Richards]

Something more informed than a series patched together with only an individuals beliefs? That's not informed, that's blindfolded darts. Your lists of physical characteristics of knife usage as a verification of sorts for your grouping them by killer isn't informed, nor is any activity seen with a knife consistently seen throughout whatever series your espousing. Informed.....you've cited abdominal flaps as a repetitive gesture that allows you to group 2 disparate series together. So, informed one, how many victims can be proven to have the stomach flaps removed like Chapmans? And how many do you group with those cases despite the obvious differences? And exactly how many murders are you grouping by organ take way? Kind of a unique thing to do. In Chapmans case the specific organ was chosen and removed with "no meaningless cuts", then taken with the killer, demonstrating a specific interest. Does he then kill in private and remove heads and arms from victims in a warehouse so he can throw them away easily? What do you imagine he keeps, if anything? And despite the evidence Chapmans killer is specific, he is really not so specific...well,... based on your beliefs. Not on any know evidence that's for sure. He kills in public because it heightens the experience and he likely cant control himself, and then plans to take a woman somewhere private, take her apart piece by piece over hours or days, then toss the parts he doesn't want. Does he keep the uterus...like Annies killer did? Or does that specific act mean nothing to him...according to you, of course.

You presume so much it would take hours to just break down the many errors in your argument and thought processes. More time than I can spare for sure.

So enjoy this one in a trillion killer who changes his mind like a babies diapers, has no real specific goals, or needs, or desires, he just cuts or takes apart women, indoors in private, outdoors in public...he wants a uterus, he doesnt, he is ok with one cut, then he has to do so many ridiculous things with a knife that he doubles, triples, quadriples....minutes turn into hours into days,... the time he spends with victims. Do you have some explanation why we should presume Jack the Rippers victims were not chosen specifically for the brief opportunity, the specific desires he has, when the evidence in some cases suggests just that.

Your hubris makes me smile sometimes, your insights and conclusions seem in cases to directly contradict the evidence, more conventional law enforcement perspectives and databases. Which makes me shake my head. But its your snide insulting tone and sense of ownership of the truth that bugs me.

[Fisherman]

Yes, many men had knives.

No, that does not mean that many men would kill and mutilate in the fashion we see in our cases.

Therefore, the ”point” that many men carried knives is in effect no point at all.

Surely, a more informed and relevant discussion must be somewhere out there?

[Michael W Richards]

Im not sure what multiverse you are in that makes twisting words the other guys problem Fish, but Im here to discuss the cases not try and sort out how people act, or react. So, that aside, the idea that etenguy touched upon in his last sentence is something it seems few are willing to address. Most often because it doesn't fit their own hypothesis. Use only what supports the cause, and bypass any contrary stuff. Circumstantially, how do any of these murders differ from another? Why would any victims be considered as most probably a stranger to the killer, based on circumstances? Are there indications that any victims knew their killer? What was happening in the life of the victim up until that final moment on the fateful night(s)? All those questions are far more revealing than how a victim was cut. Many, Many men had knives. Many used them daily. If they couldn't read, someone would have been telling them of all the gory details published in the papers. All you need is to have a reason to kill and the lack of self control to allow that.

The Moriarty of Murder isn't going to be found anywhere here, there is no shapechanger that seems to have limitless ideas on what he wants to do. There are vulnerable women, a violent and impoverished environment, political and economic unrest, and lots of lit matches to start a fire. People get killed for reasons, just being insane or mad and wanting to kill in a variety of fashions is the least likely possibility in any of these cases. Its the least probable answer.

The GIGO effect when investigating a murder is something to be wary of, unless you've subjectively reviewed the material youll have very little chance of solving anything. Starting from the finish line is one way that happens...(my suspect is, and so Ill look for stuff that fits that premise),..another is mistaking publicly known activities as somehow unique and characteristic of only a single mans work. Like identifying the artist of an unsigned old painting by the "signature" styles and choices. If a bunch of painters adopt the same principles, techniques and styles, how easy would it be to match a single painter to the unsigned artwork? That happens often in history, periodic styles in Art are adopted by many artists simultaneously, they are all influenced by what they have learned from others work.

Some are unique, and do not seem greatly affected by the environment of the particular moment. They do what they do. They are easy to identify..they include repetitive themes, colors, shapes, brushstrokes, despite outside influences. These are unique people.

[Fisherman]

the arguments you make about:

1. both murder series including some evisceration of some victims (and it being unlikely two killers would be exhibiting this at the same time in one city);
and
2. the resemblance of Chapman's and Jackson's mutilations

are the thought provoking similarities.

Nevertheless, I still find the differences between the two series more difficult to explain away if there was only one killer.

I think I need to await your new research/insights before re-evaluating.

I make very much more specific comparisons, etenguy. If it was just about "some evisceration of some victim", we could have one case where a heart was taken out after the killer had parted the torso in two and another case where the uterus was taken out via a six inch cut to the lower abdomen. In other words, the eviscerations could differ in both technique and choice of organs, in which case it would nevertheless be a mindblowing coincidence if it all happened in the same town and time. But this is not the case - the technique always involves that long cut from sternum to groin and both series have a clear overlap in organ choice. Not least are both sexually oriented AND non-sexually oriented organs taken.

Just like you say, Chapman and Jackson is the perhaps most clear example, where the two women will att some stage have looked like twins. But depending on the order in which the killer did what he did to Kelly, she may also have been an exact replica - she may well have lain on her back, the abdomen opened up with that long cut, the abdominal wall having been cut away and the uterus extracted at one stage.

These things do not happen in real life - unless we are dealing with a common killer.

If you want a proven explanation to the differences before you start to believe in a single killer, then your mindset will never change. Like I say, the explanation may be one of a thousand, and to me, we have no choice but top accept that one such explanation (or a number of them in combination) MUST exist. But each to his own!

[Fisherman]

When it comes to the victimology, I think we must look upon it the way the police would have done in cases like these. Just as etenguy points out, there is no certainty that all victims in both series were prostitutes, nor is there any certainty that those we know DID engage in prostitution were actively soliciting at the time of their respective encopunters with the killer.
However, saying as etenguy does, that the victiomology issue therefoe goes away is not true. The fact of the matter is that we know that the Ripper victims all practiced prostitution at times, just as we kn ow that some of them were actively soliciting - or had expressed that they were going to do so - on the nights they died.
We also know that the one and only victim in the torso series that was identified, Liz Jackson, was also recorded as a prostitute.
Having that kind of information, the police would never disregard it. They would instead say that there is good reason to suspect that the different victims were all approached on account of their prostututing themselves. And I would say the exact same myself.

[etenguy]

Hi Eten
fair enough! However, whether they were actively prostituting themselves , were known prostitutes etc. is really just a bonus because they were the same overall victimology-that is women of a certain age (and probably income bracket)-not children/girls targeted by a pedophile serial killer, of which there have been many, not old women which have also been the target of serial killers in the past. They were all young to "middle aged" women.

This is true. I'm not sure I place much significance on this though as this is a wide range of common male serial killer target victims.

Now that being said-torso victim Jackson was a prostitute and I would venture that the rest of the torso victims were too, or at least unfortunates/destitutes, which is probably one of the reasons they were not IDed-there transient lifestyle and the fact that no one cared enough about them to come forward would probably help lead to them not being Ided.

I'm sure that is one of the potential reasons, though I was shocked to read just how many missing women were recorded by the police at that time. I don't have the article to hand, but it was thousands. These unfortunate victims may well have been on the missing persons' list also.

[etenguy]

As I said before, a down and out woman is quite likely to sell herself even if she would rather not. And finding business would very likely not have been hard.
We really cannot in any way rule out - or even quantify - these matters.

I agree.

As for vicimology, Jackson prostituted herself. And once there is a prostitute in a serial murder series, the rest all tend to be prostitutes too.
None of these matters make the similarities go away, nor would it matter materially if they went away.

Peter Sutcliffe's victims are interesting in this respect. His victims included prostitutes as well as women who had other occupations. He claimed to target prostitutes, as some sort of justification for his atrocious acts, but subsequent research casts doubt on this.

With regard to the similarities you have suggested, it is my belief that some are significant and deserve greater investigation. I have no wish to sweep them under the carpet. However, I also believe some similarities you consider have significance are either not proven or not of great significance and allow the argument you make to be attacked on that basis. You allude to information or insight you are not yet prepared to share, and that information may change my view. Until then, the arguments you make about:

1. both murder series including some evisceration of some victims (and it being unlikely two killers would be exhibiting this at the same time in one city);
and
2. the resemblance of Chapman's and Jackson's mutilations

are the thought provoking similarities.

Nevertheless, I still find the differences between the two series more difficult to explain away if there was only one killer.

I think I need to await your new research/insights before re-evaluating.

[Abby Normal]

You may well be correct Abby - but we don't know that the torso victims were prostitutes and if they were, were actively prostituting themselves when they were attacked. We do know that a number of the ripper victims were actively prostituting themselves, and have good reason to think that they all were. I merely draw the conclusion that we are unable to state the victimologies were the same (they may be, but we have no evidence, just speculation).

Hi Eten
fair enough! However, whether they were actively prostituting themselves , were known prostitutes etc. is really just a bonus because they were the same overall victimology-that is women of a certain age (and probably income bracket)-not children/girls targeted by a pedophile serial killer, of which there have been many, not old women which have also been the target of serial killers in the past. They were all young to "middle aged" women.

Now that being said-torso victim Jackson was a prostitute and I would venture that the rest of the torso victims were too, or at least unfortunates/destitutes, which is probably one of the reasons they were not IDed-there transient lifestyle and the fact that no one cared enough about them to come forward would probably help lead to them not being Ided.

[Fisherman]

As I said before, a down and out woman is quite likely to sell herself even if she would rather not. And finding business would very likely not have been hard.
We really cannot in any way rule out - or even quantify - these matters.
As for vicimology, Jackson prostituted herself. And once there is a prostitute in a serial murder series, the rest all tend to be prostitutes too.
None of these matters make the similarities go away, nor would it matter materially if they went away.

[etenguy]

Google ”seven months pregnant”, etenguy. You will be surprised, I dare say. At the end of the day, these things are individual.

I cannot argue against that different women experience pregnancy differently, including how obviously pregnant they are. But at 7-8 months pregnant it would be rare the pregnancy was not obvious.

[etenguy]

Oh, and much as you may want to hsve it the other way around, victimology of course remains a factor of interest. Not that it is of any great importance in comparison with the other points of similarity.

I agree that victimology remains a factor of interest - I merely find we cannot be sure of the torso murder victimology.

[etenguy]

wooooah! hold on there trigger. it was the same victimology whether any of the victims were actively prostituting themselves the night they met there killer-I suspect most were but have doubts about stride, Kelly and Jackson. regardless the known victims were prostitutes and Id imagine that the unknown torso ones probably were too.

You may well be correct Abby - but we don't know that the torso victims were prostitutes and if they were, were actively prostituting themselves when they were attacked. We do know that a number of the ripper victims were actively prostituting themselves, and have good reason to think that they all were. I merely draw the conclusion that we are unable to state the victimologies were the same (they may be, but we have no evidence, just speculation).

[Abby Normal]

7-8 months pregnant is late in the process and she would be showing. I think that is an obstacle to automatically assuming she was prostituting herself. If she was not, then we have no clue as to the torso killers victimology beyond the victims being women.

(as a side note - what manner of beast attacks a pregnant woman).



Exactly Abby - we don't know - so claiming the same victimology as a significant similarity between the two murder series is no longer possible.

wooooah! hold on there trigger. it was the same victimology whether any of the victims were actively prostituting themselves the night they met there killer-I suspect most were but have doubts about stride, Kelly and Jackson. regardless the known victims were prostitutes and Id imagine that the unknown torso ones probably were too.