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Geoprofile of Jack the Ripper reveals Tabram and Nichols connection.

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  • #31
    Originally posted by John G View Post
    Geographical profiling, but it has it's limitations, particularly when more than one perpetrator is operating in the same area. Moreover, presumably the same analysis would also identify Emma Smith as a victim, ad she was assaulted close to where Tabram was murdered. Okay, I know she claimed to have been attacked by a gang, but that in itself adds weight to the theory that more than one individual was responsible for the Whitechapel murders.
    Tom Wescott's book delves into this and it looks like Smith and her "witnesses" may have been lying to protect somebody and the same lying happened with Tabram's murder.

    BTW, JtR could have been a gang member, no problem. Then he goes ronin. Could explain the experience in getting them prostrate without a sound.
    Bona fide canonical and then some.

    Comment


    • #32
      Originally posted by Observer View Post
      So in effect Hutchison dropped the most incriminating piece of evidence a mere couple of ninutes walk from where he was apparently living at the time of the murders. Do you think this is likely?
      sure-in a city that dense. now I don't think whoever dropped it lived in the wentworth building or even on that street. THAT would be too close.
      "Is all that we see or seem
      but a dream within a dream?"

      -Edgar Allan Poe


      "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
      quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

      -Frederick G. Abberline

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Observer View Post
        So in effect Hutchison dropped the most incriminating piece of evidence a mere couple of ninutes walk from where he was apparently living at the time of the murders. Do you think this is likely?
        A question I asked myself a number of times! Then again, I do not belong to the ones who regard the Victoria Home as Hutchinsons regular joint...

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by Batman View Post
          We haven't forgotten. You are currently engaged in defending that position in another thread with questions like why is he shouting to call people over if he has just murdered someone. People who testified to trying to avoid him because the area was so dark.

          If geographic mapping pointed to the home of your Professor Plum with the lead pipe in the ballroom, you would be doing summersaults... but it obviously isn't.

          Fitting suspects to all the evidence and not just some evidence to a suspect is how investigations move forward. This geographic profile is probably evidence and your suspect doesn't fit in. That suspect bias stuff is an automatic set of blinders when it comes to evidence. The amount that gets dismissed as coincidence is absurd.

          It's interesting how many people who believe in coincidences now need this geographic profile to be yet another coincidence.
          but it dosnt point to your favored suspect chapman though does it?
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Batman View Post
            Tom Wescott's book delves into this and it looks like Smith and her "witnesses" may have been lying to protect somebody and the same lying happened with Tabram's murder.

            BTW, JtR could have been a gang member, no problem. Then he goes ronin. Could explain the experience in getting them prostrate without a sound.
            no it dosnt. serial killers, especially the rare post mortem mutilators, are singular-none got their starts in a gang. its a very private, singular thing.

            and don't bring up tandem killers like the hillside stranglers, Lake and Ng(sp) or the canadien couple.
            dosnt count and especially becaue tandem killers tend to be torturers, rapists and all interest is pre mortem.
            Last edited by Abby Normal; 10-19-2018, 01:35 PM.
            "Is all that we see or seem
            but a dream within a dream?"

            -Edgar Allan Poe


            "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
            quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

            -Frederick G. Abberline

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by Batman View Post
              We haven't forgotten. You are currently engaged in defending that position in another thread with questions like why is he shouting to call people over if he has just murdered someone. People who testified to trying to avoid him because the area was so dark.

              If geographic mapping pointed to the home of your Professor Plum with the lead pipe in the ballroom, you would be doing summersaults... but it obviously isn't.

              Fitting suspects to all the evidence and not just some evidence to a suspect is how investigations move forward. This geographic profile is probably evidence and your suspect doesn't fit in. That suspect bias stuff is an automatic set of blinders when it comes to evidence. The amount that gets dismissed as coincidence is absurd.

              It's interesting how many people who believe in coincidences now need this geographic profile to be yet another coincidence.
              You don´t have to tell me about coincidences, Batman. Or Scobie: "When the coincidences mount up - and they do in his case - it becomes one coincidence too many."

              Then again, we may of course like some coincidences more than others.
              Regardless of that, no other suspect compares to Lechmere in the genre. Not by a country mile.

              But as I said, back to geoprofiling, congenially described a few posts back: "Geoprofiling can be a hit or a miss".

              Wow. Just wow.

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                no it dosnt. serial killers, especially the rare post mortem mutilators, are singular-none got their starts in a gang. its a very private, singular thing.

                and don't bring up tandem killers like the hillside stranglers, Lake and Ng(sp) or the canadien couple.
                dosnt count and especially becaue tandem killers tend to be torturers, rapists and all interest is pre mortem.
                What about Rose and Fred West? And Duffy and Mulchay threatened to mutilate one of their victims.

                Tabram wasn't mutilated post mortem, which would tend to rule her out if post mortem mutilation was the primary objective.
                Last edited by John G; 10-19-2018, 01:53 PM.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by John G View Post
                  What about Rose and Fred West? And Duffy and Mulchay threatened to mutilate one of their victims.

                  Tabram wasn't mutilated post mortem, which would tend to rule her out if post mortem mutilation was the primary objective.
                  As I said, one goes look. DNA dragnets either hit or miss for example. Here we have looked and we have found some things.

                  I'm not going to ignore it, even if I had a super-duper suspect.
                  Bona fide canonical and then some.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                    but it dosnt point to your favored suspect chapman though does it?
                    Chapman is a good suspect. I think Kozminski a good suspect also. I don't think I have a favoured one at all and I won't let that get in the way of a good geographic profile either.

                    Having said that Chapman does have a connection to this I think. A place of business. A barber's shop in the basement of the White Hart Pub, in George Yard. Which is just below the hot zone.

                    Make of that coincidence what you will
                    Bona fide canonical and then some.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
                      no it dosnt. serial killers, especially the rare post mortem mutilators, are singular-none got their starts in a gang. its a very private, singular thing.

                      and don't bring up tandem killers like the hillside stranglers, Lake and Ng(sp) or the canadien couple.
                      dosnt count and especially becaue tandem killers tend to be torturers, rapists and all interest is pre mortem.
                      Are you sure there are no cases of a duo splitting up for example and one going off on their own, even if they hook back up later?
                      Bona fide canonical and then some.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Batman View Post
                        It's interesting how many people who believe in coincidences now need this geographic profile to be yet another coincidence.
                        Just for the record. I'm one of those who isn't fazed by coincidences, but I don't dismiss this "heatmap" - on the contrary, I think it gives a useful indicator of where the Ripper may have lived. What I am saying, however, is that the heatmap can't be used to pin Tabram's (or Smith's) death on Jack the Ripper simply on grounds of proximity.
                        Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                        "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Sam Flynn View Post
                          Just for the record. I'm one of those who isn't fazed by coincidences, but I don't dismiss this "heatmap" - on the contrary, I think it gives a useful indicator of where the Ripper may have lived. What I am saying, however, is that the heatmap can't be used to pin Tabram's (or Smith's) death on Jack the Ripper simply on grounds of proximity.
                          I think even if Tabram had been beaten to death with a broken wooden pallet piece she meets the right victimology for JtR. Put the photo of the dead Martha Tabram next to the dead Anne Chapman. I wonder how many people mistook Tabram for an Anne Chapman photo.
                          Bona fide canonical and then some.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Batman View Post
                            I think even if Tabram had been beaten to death with a broken wooden pallet piece she meets the right victimology for JtR. Put the photo of the dead Martha Tabram next to the dead Anne Chapman. I wonder how many people mistook Tabram for an Anne Chapman photo.
                            For different reasons (I'm not familiar enough with geoprofiling to have a view of its efficacy) I too believe Martha Tabram was the first (or at least early) victim. They include timing of the murder, victim profile, the manner in which the body was left, the same type of weapon, nature of the attack etc... I also find the resemblance striking with the victims, with the exception of MJK, especially Martha and Anne.

                            Sam and I have debated Martha Tabram as a victim of JTR in another thread. I understand his significant argument against classifying Tabram as a JTR victim to be that the attack MO was different (over simplified but stabbing instead of slicing with a different knife than the other murders). I think it was the start of a learning process and we see evolution through the murders. I feel the balance of all the reasons to believe Martha was a JTR victim massively outweigh the reason that might cause doubt.

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by rjpalmer View Post
                              You're joking, right? I don't wish to dampen your efforts, but for the sake of reality:

                              At the time of the DC sniper case, profiler after profiler appeared on cable news, spouting all the usual hype, stating the killer would be a local white guy driving a white van who must have had an intimate knowledge of the DC Beltway area...probably a local delivery driver.


                              In reality, the actual killers (plural) turned out to be two black dudes, recently from TACOMA WASHINGTON (that's the other side of the continent). They were entirely mobile, living out of their blue sedan and were captured due to a tip from Robert Holmes (of Tacoma) who had seen Muhammad and Malvo back in Washington State, practicing shooting their bushmaster with a silencer and saying how easy it would be to launch an urban attack. This set the police looking for Muhammad, and his car was eventually spotted while the two men were sleeping in a rest area off a freeway exit in Maryland by a guy named Whitney Donohue. He tipped the police, who checked it out, and secured the arrest. Case closed.

                              Holmes and Donohue shared the $500,000 reward for the capture of Muhammad and Malvo.

                              "Geographical Profiling" had no bearing on the outcome of the case, and would have been utterly worthless considering the two supsects were from the other side of the country and entirely mobile.

                              Why do you state that Keppel and his methods solved this case? In truth, I would think the DC sniper case is one of the better examples of why Geographical profiling might, in the end, be utterly worthless if the suspects were from outside the area.

                              Similarly, in the case of Pickton, the pig farmer from Vancouver, BC., he picked up all his prostitute victims in the same tiny redlight district in downtown Vancouver, but lived some 20 miles away. Please show me how a geographical profile would have proved useful in the case.

                              Pickton was arrested when a rookie 'mountie' searched his pig farm during a weapons violation charge; she discovered some items belonging to a missing woman. Years earlier, Pickton had been arrested for abducting and brutalizing a "sex worker" who had escaped from his farm, but, unbelievably, the government didn't prosecute him.

                              At the time Kim Rossomo (not Keppel) was working in Vancouver. He had earlier pushed for the idea that this spate of missing women from downtown Vancouver might be the work of a serial killer. He was ignored by his fellow officers, and no "geographical profile," to my knowledge, was ever written-up, and could hardly have been useful in pointing to a pig farm some 20 miles distance from the neighborhood from where the women were abducted.

                              If anything, these two cases show the possibility of a killer living miles away. To state that these cases were solved by geographical profiling is entirely unwarranted.
                              Excellent post, and you have confirmed what I had already told Batman as to the viability of using profiling, Geo or criminal.

                              www.trevormarriott.co.uk

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by etenguy View Post
                                For different reasons (I'm not familiar enough with geoprofiling to have a view of its efficacy) I too believe Martha Tabram was the first (or at least early) victim. They include timing of the murder, victim profile, the manner in which the body was left, the same type of weapon, nature of the attack etc... I also find the resemblance striking with the victims, with the exception of MJK, especially Martha and Anne.

                                Sam and I have debated Martha Tabram as a victim of JTR in another thread. I understand his significant argument against classifying Tabram as a JTR victim to be that the attack MO was different (over simplified but stabbing instead of slicing with a different knife than the other murders). I think it was the start of a learning process and we see evolution through the murders. I feel the balance of all the reasons to believe Martha was a JTR victim massively outweigh the reason that might cause doubt.
                                She was even considered a ripper victim by the press in relation to the Nichols murder. Seems she was forgotten about after Chapman.
                                Bona fide canonical and then some.

                                Comment

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