Was the ripper and also the torsomans crimes totally non sexual in nature?

[Abby Normal]

There has been some recent ideas bandied about on the torso thread and elsewhere that perhaps the ripper and torso crimes (moreso on the torso crimes) may have been totally non sexual in nature. As in the motive was more akin to a crazy doctor type scenario-morbid curiosity, experimentation type thing.

Or perhaps just anger, revenge, dehumanizing the victims?

What are folks thoughts in this?

[Fisherman]

There has been some recent ideas bandied about on the torso thread and elsewhere that perhaps the ripper and torso crimes (moreso on the torso crimes) may have been totally non sexual in nature. As in the motive was more akin to a crazy doctor type scenario-morbid curiosity, experimentation type thing.

Or perhaps just anger, revenge, dehumanizing the victims?

What are folks thoughts in this?

I think they were sex crimes, but the only aspect that interested the killer was total control, owning the bodies, being at liberty to do whatever he wanted to with them.

A wish for control is very often the force behind sexual serial killings.

[Abby Normal]

I think they were sex crimes, but the only aspect that interested the killer was total control, owning the bodies, being at liberty to do whatever he wanted to with them.

A wish for control is very often the force behind sexual serial killings.

Hi Fish
Thanks! Do you think there was any overt sexual nature to either though? As in the killer "got off" sexually in any way? and if so-how and when?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I’m unsure how certain we can be Abby. I’ve always suspected that they were though, with control being a strong element as Fish said. I don’t think that we can rule out simple hatred of women in general or prostitutes specifically though. The Ripper or TK (or both - or TorsoRipper [yes, I doubt but also admit the possibility]) might have been on a mission to rid the streets of sin (sounds a bit melodramatic I admit, but it’s possible.)
The attacking of the genital and womb areas might point to a sexual motive or to someone that sees those ‘regions’ as the cause of problems. Even the staging of the women, skirts lifted legs spread, might point at sexual or they could be just the killer saying “look at the reward for sin” or something like it.
In short I don’t know how we can tip the balance of likelihood’s either way? Many psychologists and profilers have looked at the case though, is there rough % view either way?

[Herlock Sholmes]

I would say though that the motive is possibly (and I’ll only go that far) more difficult to define in TK’s murders. I only suggest this because we know that all of the rippers victims were prostitutes but I don’t think that’s certain in Torso’s case unless I’m mistaken of course. Then there’s the display element which gives at least the appearance of sexual ‘events.’ I’m still on the fence to some extent though.

[Abby Normal]

I would say though that the motive is possibly (and I’ll only go that far) more difficult to define in TK’s murders. I only suggest this because we know that all of the rippers victims were prostitutes but I don’t think that’s certain in Torso’s case unless I’m mistaken of course. Then there’s the display element which gives at least the appearance of sexual ‘events.’ I’m still on the fence to some extent though.

Hi herlock
Some possibles for non sexual motive:

Religious zealot killing unclean sinning women
Crazy doctor type experimenting
Pissed off syphiless loser exacting revenge

[c.d.]

As has been stated, our idea of what constitutes sexual or non-sexual could very well differ from the killer's perspective.

c.d.

[Yabs]

My opinion...

The choice of victim.
Prostitution aside, The thing they also had in common with each other was being hopelessly drunk and reckless.
This is what made them easy pickings.

Depending on the motive, the killings were possibly sexual due to the intensity of the act.
They wouldn’t be despatched in that way if not for ritual, gain or gratification.
If you kill another human in that way for pleasure then it’s sexual, it’s just in a manor that right minded people can’t comprehend.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi herlock
Some possibles for non sexual motive:

Religious zealot killing unclean sinning women
Crazy doctor type experimenting
Pissed off syphiless loser exacting revenge

They all sound like plots for a new Ripper movie but I think that they’re all possibles.

Maybe someone who found out that his beloved mother was a prostitute or had an affair.

[Sam Flynn]

Then there’s the display element which gives at least the appearance of sexual ‘events.’

Not so in the Torso cases. If the perpetrator(s) of those intended a sexual display, they'd have kept the legs on and spread them apart.

[Herlock Sholmes]

Not so in the Torso cases. If the perpetrator(s) of those intended a sexual display, they'd have kept the legs on and spread them apart.

You can’t get more ‘spread apart’ than a couple of miles Gareth

[Sam Flynn]

The thought had occurred to me, Herlock

[Michael W Richards]

I think some murders within these 2 groups do not show any signs that the nature of the crime was at all sexual. I believe Annies murder seems almost clinical in comparison, for one. Primarily, actions taken to achieve an objective. It would seem unlikely that whomever killed Polly would have had anything intimate and sexual on his mind, the location doesn't seem the proper venue for it. In Mitre Square, if we are to believe Lawende's sighting was indeed of Kate, he had to work fast to be out of the square by Harveys look in, or Watkins next pass. No time to get too preoccupied.

The Torso murders were likely of that ilk though. They were done in private. Perhaps over a matter of days, certainly of many hours. We never found the entirety of the remains. They were much younger women than most of the Canonical Group.

[Abby Normal]

I think some murders within these 2 groups do not show any signs that the nature of the crime was at all sexual. I believe Annies murder seems almost clinical in comparison, for one. Primarily, actions taken to achieve an objective. It would seem unlikely that whomever killed Polly would have had anything intimate and sexual on his mind, the location doesn't seem the proper venue for it. In Mitre Square, if we are to believe Lawende's sighting was indeed of Kate, he had to work fast to be out of the square by Harveys look in, or Watkins next pass. No time to get too preoccupied.

The Torso murders were likely of that ilk though. They were done in private. Perhaps over a matter of days, certainly of many hours. We never found the entirety of the remains. They were much younger women than most of the Canonical Group.

Thanks Michael-interesting points.

[Harry D]

You could argue that all serial killings are psychosexually motivated. That's why serial killers almost invariably target the gender they are sexually attracted to.