Smith and Tabram

[Jmorty]

First of all, as I haven't made a post here before, hello everyone! I've been lurking these boards since around 2013.

The point I will make here is not elaborate, and has probably been made before, but perhaps some good discussion can come of it nonetheless. If we posit that JtR was the killer of (or lead to the death of, if we're being pedantic) Emma Smith, and also the killer of Martha Tabram, might it be possible that the thirty-nine stab wounds on Tabram were not the result of an explosive fit of rage or passion, but simply an OTT way of making sure that the victim was in fact dead, with JtR having become aware of Smith's (at least immediate) survival. Again, I apologise that this isn't exactly a brilliant first post; I will endeavour to make my future threads more substantial.

Thanks,
Jmorty

[Abby Normal]

First of all, as I haven't made a post here before, hello everyone! I've been lurking these boards since around 2013.

The point I will make here is not elaborate, and has probably been made before, but perhaps some good discussion can come of it nonetheless. If we posit that JtR was the killer of (or lead to the death of, if we're being pedantic) Emma Smith, and also the killer of Martha Tabram, might it be possible that the thirty-nine stab wounds on Tabram were not the result of an explosive fit of rage or passion, but simply an OTT way of making sure that the victim was in fact dead, with JtR having become aware of Smith's (at least immediate) survival. Again, I apologise that this isn't exactly a brilliant first post; I will endeavour to make my future threads more substantial.

Thanks,
Jmorty

Hi Jmorty
welcome to the nut house! Yes absolutely. and with Nichols we could see the evolution of a budding serial killer whos learning how to kill more quickly, quietly and efficiently.

[GUT]

Welcome Jmorty.

One of the problems with this case, is that almost anything is possible.

[John Malcolm]

Very thoughtful post. I've always had strong feelings about the deaths of Emma Smith and Martha Tabram being connected to the following "canonical five".

[Abby Normal]

while I don't rule out emma smith, I think she is probably not a ripper victim though.

The group attack and sexual assault angle throws me off.

but I do have a canonical seven-I add tabram and McKenzie to the five.

[Paddy]

Yes it does seem like he was learning !
I agree with you Abby regarding Alice Mckenzie, what do you think happened with her as the attack was not so severe was it?

Pat..............................

[Abby Normal]

Yes it does seem like he was learning !
I agree with you Abby regarding Alice Mckenzie, what do you think happened with her as the attack was not so severe was it?

Pat..............................

Hi paddy
Happy st pats day! Soon any way.

I think he was drunk and or sick and or interrupted.

[sdreid]

Emma was attacked 130 years ago next Tuesday-R.I.P.

[jerryd]

Hi paddy
Happy st pats day! Soon any way.

I think he was drunk and or sick and or interrupted.

Not sure about drunk, Abby. He had to have the where-with-all to kill and get away un-detected. I agree with the interrupted part to a certain degree. I think he knew before hand he had a small window of time to work with and tried to get as much done in that short time frame as he could. Maybe as a personal challenge or to mock the authorities. Eddowes had "doodling" done to her face similar to the "doodling" on Mckenzie's stomach. One of her wounds to the abdomen was long and deeper at the top than the bottom, so it wasn't as superficial as the others. If he took the time to rip her open, he may have been more of a mess than he wanted to be knowing the short window he was working in.

Given ample time, he could pull off a Mary Kelly type murder or as has been suggested in the past, cut off limbs and heads and dispose of them in various locations.

I am 50/50 on Tabram and Emma Smith may have been a victim of the gang spoken about. There was an arrest of a young man named Joseph Isaacs and a friend named Adler shortly before the murder of Emma Smith in early April, 1888. They were part of a gang of young men causing trouble in the ladies waiting room in the Railway Station near Whitechapel. Bishopsgate IIRC. Not sure if it's the same Joseph Isaacs but it very well could be. Same age and occupation. Adler lived in Hanbury Street.

[Abby Normal]

Not sure about drunk, Abby. He had to have the where-with-all to kill and get away un-detected. I agree with the interrupted part to a certain degree. I think he knew before hand he had a small window of time to work with and tried to get as much done in that short time frame as he could. Maybe as a personal challenge or to mock the authorities. Eddowes had "doodling" done to her face similar to the "doodling" on Mckenzie's stomach. One of her wounds to the abdomen was long and deeper at the top than the bottom, so it wasn't as superficial as the others. If he took the time to rip her open, he may have been more of a mess than he wanted to be knowing the short window he was working in.

Given ample time, he could pull off a Mary Kelly type murder or as has been suggested in the past, cut off limbs and heads and dispose of them in various locations.

I am 50/50 on Tabram and Emma Smith may have been a victim of the gang spoken about. There was an arrest of a young man named Joseph Isaacs and a friend named Adler shortly before the murder of Emma Smith in early April, 1888. They were part of a gang of young men causing trouble in the ladies waiting room in the Railway Station near Whitechapel. Bishopsgate IIRC. Not sure if it's the same Joseph Isaacs but it very well could be. Same age and occupation. Adler lived in Hanbury Street.

Hi jerry
Thanks. The thing is we know that Emma was attacked by a gang. And no knife used. Tabram we don’t know about multiple people and the only evidence is that she was with one man prior to being found murdered. But the hiked skirt, use of knife targeting the throat and abdomen/privates leads me to conclude she was probably an early ripper victim.

Add to that the attack on mill wood earlier nearby with knife to abdomen and we can see a clear logical progression of a serial killer learning and evolving as he gains practice.

Even the use of possibly two knives on tab ram, which some think might point to a multiple person attack like smith, to me actually meshes with an evolving serial killer. As in—the attack on mill wood was with a smaller knife, one which the killer previously was accustomed to carrying all the time. Next time out he also brought a larger knife, both of which he used on tab ram.

It all fits to me pretty nicely with a natural progression:

Milllwod-small knife, abdomen targeted
Tabram- small and larger knife, throat and abdomen targeted
Nichols-large knife, throat cut, abdomen targeted
The rest with organ removal and more escalation etc.

[Sam Flynn]

"Tabram- small and larger knife, throat and abdomen targeted"

Tabram sustained more (stab) wounds to the upper body, and even her abdominal wounds (again, stabs) were primarily to the upper abdomen.

[Patrick S]

First of all, as I haven't made a post here before, hello everyone! I've been lurking these boards since around 2013.

The point I will make here is not elaborate, and has probably been made before, but perhaps some good discussion can come of it nonetheless. If we posit that JtR was the killer of (or lead to the death of, if we're being pedantic) Emma Smith, and also the killer of Martha Tabram, might it be possible that the thirty-nine stab wounds on Tabram were not the result of an explosive fit of rage or passion, but simply an OTT way of making sure that the victim was in fact dead, with JtR having become aware of Smith's (at least immediate) survival. Again, I apologise that this isn't exactly a brilliant first post; I will endeavour to make my future threads more substantial.

Thanks,
Jmorty

Good points, mirroring to some extent, my own thoughts. I feel that Tabram was likely a Ripper victim. The killer, having struggled to killer, keep her quiet, etc., evolved in future murders to cutting the throat, thus avoiding the struggle and accompanying noise. I'm less convinced with Smith but the possibility exists, provided she wasn't honest about her attacker(s). However, proximity and timing may point to one man having done for Smith, Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, et al.

[kjab3112]

Even ignoring the reported gang with Smith, the nature of her attack rules her out as being a Ripper victim for me. The (limited) reporting of the injuries states blunt force trauma to the perineum resulting in a ruptured peritoneum and hence large (but not massive) blood loss and resultant death from peritonitis. In addition she had blunt force trauma to the face. This goes against the canonical five where there was minimal bruising in keeping with hand pressure. That she was a victim of a serious sexual assault resulting in her death is without question, but she just doesn't fit with the Ripper being the culprit.

Paul