Same motive = same killer

[Harry D]

When was it proven that the killer was in a state of "excitement and fear", Michael? Is it just a suggestion of yours?

Was the killer in a state of fear when cutting Jackson up, in all probability in a private lair?

The flaps are significant and very, very important. If yu can prove that they were simply coincidental, then fine.

You may find that hard, though.

Fish, what's your take on the 1902 Lambeth torso? I did ask before but I don't recall you answering.

[Fisherman]

Fish, what's your take on the 1902 Lambeth torso? I did ask before but I don't recall you answering.

I can´t remember answering myself. Lambeth, that will be the Salamanca Place torso, right?

I think it was done by somebody else than the suggested Rippertorso killer. It was crudely dismembered and the head was left with the body.

[Michael W Richards]

Hi Fisherman,

When was it proven that the killer was in a state of "excitement and fear", Michael? Is it just a suggestion of yours?

I believe that data on serial killers shows us that they experience a heightened state during their crimes, and that's why in many cases they kill again...chasing that high.

Was the killer in a state of fear when cutting Jackson up, in all probability in a private lair?

Perhaps not fear of discovery, as would be the case in outdoor murder/mutilations.

The flaps are significant and very, very important. If yu can prove that they were simply coincidental, then fine.

Actually since its you that are making the case for combining these quite obviously different series, its your proof that is important here.

You may find that hard, though

Ditto.

[Fisherman]

When was it proven that the killer was in a state of "excitement and fear", Michael? Is it just a suggestion of yours?

I believe that data on serial killers shows us that they experience a heightened state during their crimes, and that's why in many cases they kill again...chasing that high.

So, just a suggestion of yours, then.

Was the killer in a state of fear when cutting Jackson up, in all probability in a private lair?

Perhaps not fear of discovery, as would be the case in outdoor murder/mutilations.

So why would that murder parallel the others in the flap respect?

The flaps are significant and very, very important. If yu can prove that they were simply coincidental, then fine.

Actually since its you that are making the case for combining these quite obviously different series, its your proof that is important here.

It is extremely rare and it occurs in both series. That should tell the whole story.

You may find that hard, though

Ditto.

Oh, I can manage.

[John Wheat]

Just to clarify are those that are saying the Torso Killer and Jack were one and the same including the Torso murders in 1873, 1874 and 1884 or not?

[Sam Flynn]

It is extremely rare and it occurs in both series. That should tell the whole story.

How is removal of flesh in flaps extremely rare? In those cases where abdominal flesh was removed, do you think that every report would mention precisely how the flesh was cut away? Even in the Ripper series we wouldn't know about how Chapman's and Kelly's flesh was cut away were it not for a report in a non-mainstream paper (which I only noticed some years into studying the case) and the chance resurfacing of Bond's detailed notes. And it bears repeating that the ways in which the flaps were cut in Chapman's and Kelly's cases were different in themselves, and the way in which the flaps - sorry, strips - of flesh cut from Elizabeth Jackson was different again. Furthermore, "flapectomy" was by no means the only technique employed even within the Ripper series itself.

Flapectomy is not a consistent "technique", and it smacks entirely of improvisation in either case. Anyone confronted with the task of opening an abdomen might come up with it entirely independently.

[Abby Normal]

Just to clarify are those that are saying the Torso Killer and Jack were one and the same including the Torso murders in 1873, 1874 and 1884 or not?

hi john
I lean toward they were. I think fish definitely does.
I also lean toward the torsos and jack being the same.

[Abby Normal]

How is removal of flesh in flaps extremely rare? In those cases where abdominal flesh was removed, do you think that every report would mention precisely how the flesh was cut away? Even in the Ripper series we wouldn't know about how Chapman's and Kelly's flesh was cut away were it not for a report in a non-mainstream paper (which I only noticed some years into studying the case) and the chance resurfacing of Bond's detailed notes. And it bears repeating that the ways in which the flaps were cut in Chapman's and Kelly's cases were different in themselves, and the way in which the flaps - sorry, strips - of flesh cut from Elizabeth Jackson was different again. Furthermore, "flapectomy" was by no means the only technique employed even within the Ripper series itself.

Flapectomy is not a consistent "technique", and it smacks entirely of improvisation in either case. Anyone confronted with the task of opening an abdomen might come up with it entirely independently.

Hi Sam
Hope you are having a lovely weekend.

How is removal of flesh in flaps extremely rare?

I have never heard of a serial killer who did this.

Post mortem mutilating serial killers who cut into the victims and remove organs are very rare to begin with, let alone ones (if any)who cut away flaps of flesh from the abdomen. added to that with the intention to get at the innards and do more cutting and removing.

and yet there were apparently two working in the same general location in the same general time frame?

too much of a coincidence.

[John Wheat]

hi john
I lean toward they were. I think fish definitely does.
I also lean toward the torsos and jack being the same.

Thanks Abby

[Sam Flynn]

I have never heard of a serial killer who did this.

How did Dahmer remove the abdominal flesh when creating that grotesque "sculpture" of one of his victims? In one continuous sheet? In flaps? I don't recall every reading how it was done; like I said, these details sometimes just aren't recorded or reported - so it shouldn't surprise us if we've never heard of other examples.

And I'm not solely interested in serial killers. There's no reason why a one-off dismemberment killer wouldn't improvise a similar solution to opening the abdomen. After all, that's precisely what Jack the Ripper did.

[Sam Flynn]

and yet there were apparently two working in the same general location in the same general time frame?

Steady on, Abby! Clapham/Battersea is by no means "the same general location" as Whitechapel/Spitalfields. Then, as now, they are worlds apart in terms of socio-economics and geography.

[Abby Normal]

Steady on, Abby! Clapham/Battersea is by no means "the same general location" as Whitechapel/Spitalfields. Then, as now, they are worlds apart in terms of socio-economics and geography.

no theyre not. China and Brazil are "worlds apart". England and south Africa are worlds apart. This all happened in one city. and the two areas are not that far apart. easy walking distance in fact. and lets not forget one of the torsos was found smack dab in the middle of the WC.

[Abby Normal]

How did Dahmer remove the abdominal flesh when creating that grotesque "sculpture" of one of his victims? In one continuous sheet? In flaps? I don't recall every reading how it was done; like I said, these details sometimes just aren't recorded or reported - so it shouldn't surprise us if we've never heard of other examples.

And I'm not solely interested in serial killers. There's no reason why a one-off dismemberment killer wouldn't improvise a similar solution to opening the abdomen. After all, that's precisely what Jack the Ripper did.

yes it would be interesting how Dahmer did it, or any serial killer did it, if they indeed did. maybe a job for one of our intrepid researchers. either way I'm sure its very very rare.

[Sam Flynn]

yes it would be interesting how Dahmer did it, or any serial killer did it, if they indeed did.

Don't forget - it's not just about serial killers.

either way I'm sure its very very rare.

No doubt, but don't let that cloud our judgment as to the geographical, methodological and other differences between the torso murders and the JTR series. Series of murders in the same "general" area before have overlapped with other series and one-off murders.

[Sam Flynn]

no theyre not.

They were (are) very different places, as a quick look at the 1889 Booth maps will demonstrate.

China and Brazil are "worlds apart". England and south Africa are worlds apart. This all happened in one city.

It would helpful, perhaps, if one understood just how parochial the residents of Britain can be; the East End and the West End of London were, and are, poles apart. Whoever committed the majority of the torso murders was almost certainly resident in Southwest London; the Ripper was almost certainly a resident of the East End.