Same motive = same killer

[Joshua Rogan]

Hi Observer,

Some report the name as "Miller" but his name was Claude Mellor. He became alerted to the John Arnold story because the description on the man circulating fit a man he knew by the name of John Cleary who was an ex-compositor for the Globe.

Regarding your other point about Swanson. Ellen Bisney was found in Brunswick Buildings after an epileptic seizure at 12:15 a.m on September 8th. Swanson said the Bisney story did not account for the mention of a murder in Back Church Lane. Brunswick Buildings were on Goulston Street.

Isn't Brunswick Buildings in Goulston Street? Is it anything to do with this story from the esteemed Taunton Courier 18th Sept '89?

"One circumstance was a few days ago reported to the police, which, if capable of substantiation, would have proved that on Sunday the fact that a murder had been committed in Backchurch-lane, or thereabouts, was known to a man giving the name of “Joe Cleary,” and supplying a false address in Drury-lane. The information which this man furnished was conveyed to the police, who satisfied themselves that it had no foundation, and it is now believed that the story originated with the man having seen or heard of a drunken woman who was taken away upon a stretcher from a place near to Cable-street on the night in question. In connection with the same matter it was pointed out to the police that some writing in chalk upon a fence in Frederick-street, Cable-street, partly obliterated, included Cleary’s name, but not much importance was attached to this coincidence."

I've always thought the "John Cleary is a fool" graffito was more than likely written by an annoyed journalist who investigated his tale but found nothing.

[jerryd]

I've always thought the "John Cleary is a fool" graffito was more than likely written by an annoyed journalist who investigated his tale but found nothing.

Times (London)
Friday, 13 September 1889

"A singular circumstance is that on many dead walls near the scene of the discovery are the words, written in chalk, "John Cleary is a fool." These words were seen early on Tuesday morning, and before anything was known of the man's visit to the newspaper office."

I guess it could have been written by disgruntled reporters that rushed to the scene only to find nothing. Good thought.

[Sam Flynn]

Isn't Brunswick Buildings in Goulston Street?

Yes indeed. Abraham and Ethel Radin, former employers of Seweryn Klosowski/George Chapman, lived there with their two children. (1891 Census)

[jerryd]

I've often wondered if John Arnold got wind of the story Inspector Moore related to R. Harding Davis. Inspector Moore basically predicted the Pinchin torso and Davis heard about the murder on the ship back to America.

"And as we neared the station I remember the inspector's pointing into the dark arches of the London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway, and saying: "Now, what a place for a murder that would be. " A week later, while I was in mid-ocean on my way back, the body of the ninth victim was found just under those very arches, and not three minutes' walk from the police station. I don't know whether Jack the Ripper was lurking near us that night and had acted on the inspector's suggestion, or whether the inspector is Jack the Ripper himself, but the coincidence is certainly suspicious. As for myself, although I assented to its being a good place for murder at the time, I can prove an alibi by the ship's captain."

[Observer]

Hi Observer,

Some report the name as "Miller" but his name was Claude Mellor. He became alerted to the John Arnold story because the description on the man circulating fit a man he knew by the name of John Cleary who was an ex-compositor for the Globe and yes, he found Jackson's thigh in the garden of the Shelley estate in Chelsea.

Regarding your other point about Swanson. Ellen Bisney was found in Brunswick Buildings after an epileptic seizure at 12:15 a.m on September 8th. Swanson said the Bisney story did not account for the mention of a murder in Back Church Lane. Brunswick Buildings were on Goulston Street.

(Ellen Bisney story is from Ripperologist 143, Rob Clack's article)

Hi Jerry just been reading Mellor's account of the proceedings, and can't for the life of me understand how Mellor deduced that Arnold and the compositer known as Cleary could have been the same man. One was six feet tall, the other five four.

Thanks for the info re Swanson, the Casebook dissertation points to Swanson being of the mind that the Bisney seizure could have influenced Arnold.

Finally, to be honest I'm not up on the Torso Murders, I don't think they have anything to do with the Ripper murders. However, on the face of it don't you think it a wee bit suspicious that Mellor was the discoverer of Jackson't thigh? Time to read the Jackson inquest.

[jerryd]

Finally, to be honest I'm not up on the Torso Murders, I don't think they have anything to do with the Ripper murders. However, on the face of it don't you think it a wee bit suspicious that Mellor was the discoverer of Jackson't thigh? Time to read the Jackson inquest.

I used to think it was very odd Mellor found the thigh in the garden. Even though I still find it suspicious, the journalists were doing everything they could to capitalize on these stories of Ripper and torso. During the Jackson investigation, people, not only police, were scouring the shores near Battersea to find her other body parts. Mellor was supposedly walking along the embankment in that area and may have been specifically looking for parcels when he came across the thigh.

That's my take anyway at this point. Remember too, two journalists threw themselves into the investigation of the police vault and brought their own dog in to find the buried leg of the Whitehall torso. Wonder why they were so adamant about it, because the police say they searched the area after finding the torso and came up empty. Maybe they knew something?

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry just been reading Mellor's account of the proceedings, and can't for the life of me understand how Mellor deduced that Arnold and the compositer known as Cleary could have been the same man. One was six feet tall, the other five four.

I think the name "John Cleary" is why he was alerted. Then he proceeded to give his description of the man he knew (The Globe man) which turned out to obviously be the wrong guy.

There was, however, another John Cleary that played into this, but his name wasn't John Cleary in fact. His alias was John Leary and he did recently live at 21 Whitehorse Yard. The same address John Arnold gave to the Herald. After investigation by Swanson and another Detective named Partridge, John Leary was found to be a man named Dennis Lynch. John Arnold also lived at Whitehorse Yard at one time (different house number) and in my opinion knew Dennis Lynch.

[Abby Normal]

Peter Sutcliffe isn’t a good example, Harry. Sutcliffe never changed from relatively low-risk murders that were spread out over more than a decade to high-risk in murders in only a couple of months, only to return then to the relatively low-risk murder type.

The man responsible for the torsos was willing and able to take time to get their victims to some private place, kill them & cut them up, think of places where he would leave them, which meant that he had to know some of these places very well and chose the right time (when there was no copper or anybody else around) to do dump body parts. That is very far removed from the Ripper, who more or less did what he did when he wanted to and wasn't willing to take his time to minimize risk to the extent the Torso murderer was.

If you find me an example of a serial killer who changed from low-risk to high-risk and back again like the Torso man/Ripper, then I might change my mind.

All the best,
Frank

Hi Frank

I'm not sure if the low risk or high risk thing is even viable. Both took incredibly high risks.

but regardless, serial killers MO changes, sometimes drastically, its well known.

need to really focus on the sig, which in both cases is mainly post mortem mutilation and removal of body parts.

also, no evidence of torture or sadism in either series.

[jerryd]

no evidence of torture or sadism in either series.

Hi Abby,

I know Christer mentioned no torture at some point in the thread as well. Even though I don't know if we can consider it torture, the Pinchin torso showed signs of having been recently beaten and or kicked. See inquest reports on the bruises on her arms and back.

[jerryd]

Here's another thought to ponder. Could Liz Stride have been an intended victim to abduct and take away to murder and dismember her? It almost seems as though someone was trying to drag her out of there against her will. The area she was murdered would fit with the Pinchin torso. They were very close to each other.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby,

I know Christer mentioned no torture at some point in the thread as well. Even though I don't know if we can consider it torture, the Pinchin torso showed signs of having been recently beaten and or kicked. See inquest reports on the bruises on her arms and back.

Hi Jerry
well even the ripper victims had bruses and abrasions-which more than likely happened at the initial attack when trying to render the victim dead.
I'm sure some of the victims of either series may have put up some kind of fight also.

I'm talking about obvious signs of prolonged torture, burns, extensive brusing or non fatal cuts etc.

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry
well even the ripper victims had bruses and abrasions-which more than likely happened at the initial attack when trying to render the victim dead.
I'm sure some of the victims of either series may have put up some kind of fight also.

I'm talking about obvious signs of prolonged torture, burns, extensive brusing or non fatal cuts etc.

Gotcha.

[Abby Normal]

Gotcha.

Hey Jer
you gonna right up an article on all this stuff and how it ties together?
Wildbore, cleary, torso dump sites, strange news stories etc?

[jerryd]

Hey Jer
you gonna right up an article on all this stuff and how it ties together?
Wildbore, cleary, torso dump sites, strange news stories etc?

I basically have, just scattered across 4,000 threads. lol

Seriously though, if I could ever settle in on how certain people may or may not fit into this, I might do that. There are a lot of people to consider and they all seem to be connected in one way or another. I'm kind of waiting for Tom Wescott's Legrand book to come out. Legrand fits into my scenario a little bit as well. The other problem is the Cleveland Street Scandal. I have my ideas there and I don't know if it all fits together or if they are just strange coincidences. Which is probably the case.

[RockySullivan]

Hi Jerry
well even the ripper victims had bruses and abrasions-which more than likely happened at the initial attack when trying to render the victim dead.
I'm sure some of the victims of either series may have put up some kind of fight also.

I'm talking about obvious signs of prolonged torture, burns, extensive brusing or non fatal cuts etc.

Abby didn't the body have rope marks from being tied up?