Same motive = same killer

[Fisherman]

Apropos the Pinchin Street torso, how do people out here view the fact that this torso was dumped just across the street from where Charles Lechmere grew up, only a few yards away?

Is it just another coincidence? Or are more phantasies than mine tickled by it?

[MrBarnett]

Apropos the Pinchin Street torso, how do people out here view the fact that this torso was dumped just across the street from where Charles Lechmere grew up, only a few yards away?

Is it just another coincidence? Or are more phantasies than mine tickled by it?

Hi Christer,

As you may remember, I believe the Cross home was a little further away than that, probably 100 yards or so. And I'm pretty certain it was still standing in 1889.

Gary

[MrBarnett]

My reasoning can be found on posts 13, 14 and 96 here:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread.php?t=26953&highlight=Enumerator%27s&page=9

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer,

As you may remember, I believe the Cross home was a little further away than that, probably 100 yards or so. And I'm pretty certain it was still standing in 1889.

Gary

Nope, I did not remember you saying that, Gary - but I do remember that Maria Lousia lived at various addresses in Pinchin Street. 1861 it was 13 Thomas Street (the former name of Pinchin Street) and in 1881 it was 23 Pinchin Street. And if i m not misremembering, there was also a third Pinchin Street address tied to Lechmeres mother at some stage.

So I will rephrase myself: Apropos the Pinchin Street torso, how do people out here view the fact that this torso was dumped in the same small street where Charles Lechmere grew up, and where his mother had lodgings on more than one occasion?

Is it just another coincidence? Or are more phantasies than mine tickled by it?

[MrBarnett]

My 'phantasy' is well and truly tickled.

His ever-so-respectable Ma had to bring her son up in Tiger Bay.

[Fisherman]

My reasoning can be found on posts 13, 14 and 96 here:

http://www.jtrforums.com/showthread....tor%27s&page=9

Mmm. Found this on JTR, though, by Edward:

"I have copies of paperwork from the Vestry of the Parish of St George's in the East that explicitly states that 13 Thomas Street (later 26 Pinchin Street) was on the south side. I also have a plan of the building. It is dated 1st September 1856.
It states that 12 and 13 (later 24 and 26 Pinchin Street) were the first and second buildings - I think that's what is meant anyway.
To confuse matters Pinchin Street was renumbered and these two properties were also known as 11 and 13 Pinchin Street.

If the 'south' reference was an error - a slip of the pen -then the same mistake was made on a similar application also dated 1st September 1856 but completed by someone else altogether.
This is for 6, 7 and 8 Thomas Street (later 12, 4 and 16 Pinchin Street).
These three were renumbered as 21, 23 and 25 Pinchin Street."

If this is true, then we are movin away to the west from Philip Street, down to the next street to the west, a Street named Terrace, something - I cant make out the first word on the Weller 1868 map. But it takes us to a spot very close to where the body was dumped in 1891 - and on the same side of the street.

So we may be looking at something entirely different from what you suggest. Suffice to say we may so far need to settle for being in Pinchin Street, anyways - which was always a small street only. And a street to which the Lechmere family had many ties. And where a torso victim was dumped.

Which HAS to be very odd indeed, considering that Charles found Nicholsī body. Thatīs two strikes.

[Sam Flynn]

My 'phantasy' is well and truly tickled.

His ever-so-respectable Ma had to bring her son up in Tiger Bay.

Was his mother still living there when the torso was dumped? Was she still living, for that matter?

[Fisherman]

Was his mother still living there when the torso was dumped? Was she still living, for that matter?

Yes, she was still living. In 1891, she was listed as a horse-flesh dealer, as you may remember. When the torso was dumped in Pinchin Street, she was living in 147 Cable Street - a mere 300 yards or so the east of Pinchin Street. Within hauling distance, as it were - and the torso was seemingly carried to the dumping spot in a sack.

[Fisherman]

So how many streets were there in London in 1891? Ten thousand? Or thereabouts?
If so, does it not stand to reason to say that if the Torso killer could have chosen any one of these streets when dumping the torso, it was a one in ten thousand chance that he would choose Pinchin Street?
I am no mathematical genius, so correct me if I am wrong.

[Sam Flynn]

Yes, she was still living. In 1891, she was listed as a horse-flesh dealer, as you may remember.

Thanks for reminding me, Fish.

When the torso was dumped in Pinchin Street, she was living in 147 Cable Street - a mere 300 yards or so the east of Pinchin Street.

Oh, indeed, but so were many others.

[Sam Flynn]

So how many streets were there in London in 1891? Ten thousand? Or thereabouts?
If so, does it not stand to reason to say that if the Torso killer could have chosen any one of these streets when dumping the torso, it was a one in ten thousand chance that he would choose Pinchin Street?
I am no mathematical genius, so correct me if I am wrong.

How many streets had railway tracks running over them, with convenient arches beneath? Very handy for someone who wanted to drop off a piece of incriminating evidence without being seen.

[MrBarnett]

Mmm. Found this on JTR, though, by Edward:

"I have copies of paperwork from the Vestry of the Parish of St George's in the East that explicitly states that 13 Thomas Street (later 26 Pinchin Street) was on the south side. I also have a plan of the building. It is dated 1st September 1856.
It states that 12 and 13 (later 24 and 26 Pinchin Street) were the first and second buildings - I think that's what is meant anyway.
To confuse matters Pinchin Street was renumbered and these two properties were also known as 11 and 13 Pinchin Street.

If the 'south' reference was an error - a slip of the pen -then the same mistake was made on a similar application also dated 1st September 1856 but completed by someone else altogether.
This is for 6, 7 and 8 Thomas Street (later 12, 4 and 16 Pinchin Street).
These three were renumbered as 21, 23 and 25 Pinchin Street."

If this is true, then we are movin away to the west from Philip Street, down to the next street to the west, a Street named Terrace, something - I cant make out the first word on the Weller 1868 map. But it takes us to a spot very close to where the body was dumped in 1891 - and on the same side of the street.

So we may be looking at something entirely different from what you suggest. Suffice to say we may so far need to settle for being in Pinchin Street, anyways - which was always a small street only. And a street to which the Lechmere family had many ties. And where a torso victim was dumped.

Which HAS to be very odd indeed, considering that Charles found Nicholsī body. Thatīs two strikes.

I think it would tickle me slightly more to know that the house where he had lived with his policeman stepfather (named Cross) was still there. And that he was dumping the body pretty much on what had doubtless been one of the streets his mother had warned him about as a boy (Frederick Street).

I'll message Ed to see if he ever got to the bottom of the problem, but for me there's little doubt about which part of Thomas Street the family were living in in 1861.

[MrBarnett]

How many streets had railway tracks running over them, with convenient arches beneath? Very handy for someone who wanted to drop off a piece of incriminating evidence without being seen.

Indeed, Gareth, and the fact that it was the first arch off Backchurch Lane would tie in with it being possibly an impromptu dump (ooh er, matron).

[Fisherman]

Sam Flynn: Thanks for reminding me, Fish.

Be my guest!

Oh, indeed, but so were many others.

Nope. Only the fewest lived in 147 Cable Street.

Regardless of how many people lived in close enough vicinity to be able to reach the site on foot, carrying a sack with a torso in it, two sites only in this area has been tied to a Ripper suspect in any fashion as far as I can tell; the lodgings of Ma Lechmere and George Chapman, both in Cable Street. So we can narrow things down a bit, using that instrument.

But the main thing I am after is how I have had it told to me a zillion times that somebody had to find the body of Polly Nichols.

Apart from the fact that this somebody did not have to find her still bleeding, that is true.

And the torso killer of course had to dump the "armed" torso somewhere.

But when that somewhere becomes Pinchin Street, we suddenly have two such matters tied to Charles Lechmere.

And that did NOT have to happen.

[Fisherman]

How many streets had railway tracks running over them, with convenient arches beneath? Very handy for someone who wanted to drop off a piece of incriminating evidence without being seen.

That does not have anything at all to do with the issue. Backyards, doorways, cellar vaults, abandoned buildings, park shrubberies, lavatories - the killer could have chosen any place for his dumping of the body, and he was certainly not restrained to railway arches only!

The maths therefore stand - it was a one in perhaps ten thousand chance.