Same motive = same killer

[jerryd]

This news article is one reason the finding of the leg baffles me. By the way the leg was found in the vault by a journalist and his dog on October 17th. About two weeks after the torso was discovered.

Hornsey and Middlesex Messenger
October 26, 1888
(Inquest report)

[RockySullivan]

do you think someone went back and buried it? I doubt this

[jerryd]

The man who was stopped was actually a worker at the Whitehall site though?

Rocky,

Here is a different take on it in the Hull Daily News:

The statement made by an individual at Llanelly that he saw a man climb the palings surrounding the buildings where the trunk of a woman was recently found, in Westminster, has been found to have no bearing on the crime, the man being a workman.

[RockySullivan]

Rocky,

Here is a different take on it in the Hull Daily News:

The statement made by an individual at Llanelly that he saw a man climb the palings surrounding the buildings where the trunk of a woman was recently found, in Westminster, has been found to have no bearing on the crime, the man being a workman.

Thanks, if the other article is correct then only scenario that makes sense is he works there

[Pcdunn]

Although I feel sure that Debra has this under control, I think it should be intetesting information for others out here. It was asked earlier whether any of us believed that the 1873, 1874 and 1884 torsos belonged to the series of the Thames Torso killer. One very good reason to think that this was so in at least the 1873 case is this, reported in the Lancet:

"...after the body had been divided longitudinally, the right side was severed into three portions, а thoracic, an abdominal, and a pelvic."

I trust we can all see the implications.

Don't butchers cut cattle carcasses in half lengthwise? Is that what you mean?

[Fisherman]

Don't butchers cut cattle carcasses in half lengthwise? Is that what you mean?

No. I am speaking of the other half, that was divided in three parts - a thoracic, an abdominal and a pelvic part. That was exactly what the killer did to the Rainham victim and Jackson. And the normal dismemberment killer - if there is such a creature - will leave the torso intact.

This is one further reason to count the 1873 torso victim into the tally of the Thames Torso killer.

[Fisherman]

This news article is one reason the finding of the leg baffles me. By the way the leg was found in the vault by a journalist and his dog on October 17th. About two weeks after the torso was discovered.

Hornsey and Middlesex Messenger
October 26, 1888
(Inquest report)

The idea that a bloodhound would miss out seems odd to me. And it seems a whole band of dogs did?

Then again, I think the paper reports about Jasper Warings dog say that inititally, he did not seem interested in digging away. And we don´t know in how close contact with the site of the leg these other dogs came.

Nevertheless, one would have thought that they really should have found the leg.

[jerryd]

The idea that a bloodhound would miss out seems odd to me. And it seems a whole band of dogs did?

Then again, I think the paper reports about Jasper Warings dog say that inititally, he did not seem interested in digging away. And we don´t know in how close contact with the site of the leg these other dogs came.

Nevertheless, one would have thought that they really should have found the leg.

Hi Christer,

I would think they would have the dogs searching the same recess the torso was discovered in and IIRC the leg was found on one side of the trench and the torso the other. Within a few feet of each other. (no pun intended)

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer,

I would think they would have the dogs searching the same recess the torso was discovered in and IIRC the leg was found on one side of the trench and the torso the other. Within a few feet of each other. (no pun intended)

Yes, that makes sense, of course. I was only pointing to how we cannot be sure about it, since it is not in writing.
I still say those dogs should have found the leg - if it was there.

[Debra A]

Very interesting thank you, I think I remember you mentioning this before. It's very intriguing. do you think there is anything to it? it doesn't sound like a reference to the plugging. what was it about the plugging that related to sailors? was there anything in any of the cases about the way the ropes/sash cords were tied? do you think she was killed on a boat?

The press also mentioned 'marine knowledge' in association with the plugging, yes you're right, Rocky. I forgot to mention that one in my reply to TM. As far as death on a boat goes, I sometimes wonder if Ginger Nell's claiming she gave warnings to Elizabeth Jackson wasn't more for effect but that's another story.
I don't think death on a barge or vessel is feasible. Elizabeth's body had two land site dumps but both were pretty close to the Thames and both were said to have been thrown because of broken bushes in the vicinity, but I doubt anyone could have thrown anything 200 yards in to Battersea Park unless from the Albert Bridge. But then they would need to have dumped the thigh found opposite in the Shelly house gardens before or after the that dump.

[Michael W Richards]

I do believe he may have worked on the property, Michael.

I had a feeling. This could indicate something else about the Torso maker, that he chose to work in an environment that himself and not many others accessed. He liked to feel in control of his surroundings, or at least he felt in control there. Safe.

I think one thing that sticks out for me about the street mutilator is that, as it appears it at least the first 2 cases, he was playing a part in order to get the women alone. He made a game of it. He fooled them first, then did what he really wanted to do right there on the spot. Very risky business that.

He could have been unconvincing in his role, the woman might have chosen a spot that in essence trapped him....(see room 13),..someone could have come across him while still over a body...lots of variables there.

[Sam Flynn]

Interesting insights, Michael, and quite feasible, too.

[Elamarna]

I do believe he may have worked on the property, Michael.

Hi Jerry,

Which would of course argue against Lechmere, and thus to Christer take the two therefore are not by the same hand.

And I will add, while I agree on a link to the site, as does Pierre, I am open to his being in regular work on site


Steve

[Michael W Richards]

Interesting insights, Michael, and quite feasible, too.

A pat on the back can occur with the same frequency as Halley's Comet, so thanks Gareth.

I think the killer of at least Polly and Annie took great risks, so many ways each episode could go, and only some of it under his control. But apparently he felt up to the challenges anyway. Which suggests to me 1 of 2 things, he is either very confident and secure in himself and his ability to think and act spontaneously, or because of a mental illness, he didn't fully understand or couldn't comprehend the risks. The compulsion was stronger than any self preservation notions he might have had. Or any sense of wrong and right of course.

The thing about Torso maker is that we have no solid idea how long he spent with each victim. This may have been a process that took several days. Then the disposal process. No immediate gratification sought there. Whereas I see haste, uncontrolled emotion and perhaps inexperience in Pollys murder, which I believe cost him his prize that time out...something which must have frustrated him enough to try again less than 2 weeks later.

I wonder if he had seen various street women at night and knew where they often took clients, and chose Annie because she chose to do her business in a backyard.

[Fisherman]

Hi Jerry,

Which would of course argue against Lechmere, and thus to Christer take the two therefore are not by the same hand.

And I will add, while I agree on a link to the site, as does Pierre, I am open to his being in regular work on site


Steve

The Whitehall torso belonged to a group of torsos that were desribed as being very much akin to each other in terms of the cutting work done, Jackson being one of these torsos.

Jackson is of course tied to the Chapman and Kelly murders by the flap thing. And Chapman and Kelly are tied to ...

They are all interconnected.

So that begs the question "If Wildbore did not dump the other bodies on his own doorstep, then why did he do so with the Whitehall woman?"