Same motive = same killer

[jerryd]

Funnily enough I just read this, from the Lancashire Evening Post, 16th Sept '89;

"It seems the remarkable story told of the visit paid by the man Leary to the London office of the New York Herald is not without parallel in connection with the revolting crimes which in the past 18 months have occurred in the metropolis. The Leary incident has recalled the fact that a few nights before the horrible discovery of the dead body of a murdered woman in one of the recesses of the basement of the new offices intended as the headquarters of the metropolitan police on the Victoria Embankment, a man answering the same description entered the office of the Morning Advertiser and stated that the remains of a woman were to be found in that spot. The man asked a fee for the information, but before this was paid a reporter was despatched to the buildings to ascertain, with the aid of the police, whether there was any foundation for the story. Search was made in vain as in Back Church-lane the other day, but a day or two afterwards the mutilated body of a female was discovered in the precise spot which had been indicated by the mysterious informant."

Holy Moly Joshua!

Thanks for posting this. I had never heard that the same type of scenario happened in the Whitehall case. Very nice find there. It fits Arnold's MO but I wonder how much truth there is to it? I have never found an incident in the papers in 1888 that describes this. If true it really puts the spotlight on John Arnold and who his informant might be? I've often thought maybe there were bodies being cut up and dumped in order to collect reward money.

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, your "theory" is that it can't be proven the torso victims were murdered so therefore...what? Can you really prove that the Ripper victims didn't cut their own throat and had someone else do the rest?

You are telling me the idea that the torso victims were murder is "wild speculative theories and conjecture"?. Get a grip man

I am not just telling you. I am telling all that subscribe to the idea that all the torsos were the subject of the same type of murders as was seen in the Whitechapel murders and were the work of a serial killer.

I think it is you that needs to get a grip, and that grip is on reality.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[RockySullivan]

I am not just telling you. I am telling all that subscribe to the idea that all the torsos were the subject of the same type of murders as was seen in the Whitechapel murders and were the work of a serial killer.

I think it is you that needs to get a grip, and that grip is on reality.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Ok Trevor, going along with your premise...which victims do you suspect were not murdered?

[RockySullivan]

Funnily enough I just read this, from the Lancashire Evening Post, 16th Sept '89;

"It seems the remarkable story told of the visit paid by the man Leary to the London office of the New York Herald is not without parallel in connection with the revolting crimes which in the past 18 months have occurred in the metropolis. The Leary incident has recalled the fact that a few nights before the horrible discovery of the dead body of a murdered woman in one of the recesses of the basement of the new offices intended as the headquarters of the metropolitan police on the Victoria Embankment, a man answering the same description entered the office of the Morning Advertiser and stated that the remains of a woman were to be found in that spot. The man asked a fee for the information, but before this was paid a reporter was despatched to the buildings to ascertain, with the aid of the police, whether there was any foundation for the story. Search was made in vain as in Back Church-lane the other day, but a day or two afterwards the mutilated body of a female was discovered in the precise spot which had been indicated by the mysterious informant."

I've certainly not seen that before as far as I can recall!

[RockySullivan]

and the Whitehall torso was found with bloody newspapers, atleast one of which was the echo from a few weeks before. So if that Whitehall story is true yea that does look bad for Arnold

[Trevor Marriott]

Ok Trevor, going along with your premise...which victims do you suspect were not murdered?

To be honest I have no idea, because if a specific cause of death cannot be established or the evidence directly points to murder as we are discussing it we are left simply in the dark.

There is certainly a case to suggest Jackson was not murdered but may have died by other means, as could have been the case with the others. As to murder in the true sense, it would be wrong to rule out that, perhaps one was as a result of a domestic murder, and others as a result of failed back street medical procedures. On this point it would appear that the torsos were those of what are suggested young females.

The fact that the abdomens were opened up may also be a pointer. If you murder someone and want to dispose of the body, the easiest way to dismember is cut of the head, cut off the legs and arms, and hands, leaving the trunk, no need to go to all the trouble of opening up the abdomen and taking out the insides, to much work to messy.

A butcher has been mentioned as the dismemberer but for a butcher surely the quickest and easiest way for a butcher to cut off limbs would be to use a sharp meat cleaver and chop them off, again no need to open up the abdomen.

The answer to all of this is we simply do not know, and so in my opinion it is wrong for people to keep referring to these as The Torso Murders, or The Torso Serial Killer for the reasons I have stated. They should simply be referred to as "The Thames Torso Mysteries"

But that isn't going to happen because some are so fixated with the fact that all of the torsos were as a result of murder, and the work of a serial killer.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[RockySullivan]

To be honest I have no idea, because if a specific cause of death cannot be established or the evidence directly points to murder as we are discussing it we are left simply in the dark.

Trevor, do you suggest we drop the matter all together and forget about the torsos? Or should we continue on the highly likely premise that the majority (if not all) of the torso victims were murdered?

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, do you suggest we drop the matter all together and forget about the torsos? Or should we continue on the highly likely premise that the majority (if not all) of the torso victims were murdered?

Where there is an unsolved mystery there will always be those who will continue to explore that mystery, and I am no exception, but the question is how much further can we go with this particular mystery to bring it to a final conclusion? The answer is we cant go any further, unless there is any new evidence which comes to light.

So those who want to believe that all the torsos were as a result of the work of a serial killer will continue to believe this, and will reject anything that goes against that, which is their prerogative. As to me, I will keep and open mind and continue to refer to them as The Thames Torso Mysteries, and will retain a minimal interest in them.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[RockySullivan]

but the question is how much further can we go with this particular mystery to bring it to a final conclusion? The answer is we cant go any further, unless there is any new evidence which comes to light.

www.trevormarriott.co.ck

Trevor, have you been following the thread?

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, have you been following the thread?

Yes, and I see no new primary evidence other than researchers seemingly embellishing the facts to support the serial killer/murder theory.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[RockySullivan]

Yes, and I see no new primary evidence other than researchers seemingly embellishing the facts to support the serial killer/murder theory.

www.trevormarridiott.co.uk

Trevor, did you miss what josh just posted about the Whitehall tipster?

[Trevor Marriott]

Trevor, did you miss what josh just posted about the Whitehall tipster?

No I didn't miss it but does it have any direct bearing on whether or not the torsos were murdered. or there was a serial killer at work?

Does that news item appear in any London Newspapers or anywhere else for that matter?

So from an evidential point of view it is unsafe to rely on that article in its current form.

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Elamarna]

No I didn't miss it but does it have any direct bearing on whether or not the torsos were murdered. or there was a serial killer at work?

Does that news item appear in any London Newspapers or anywhere else for that matter?

So from an evidential point of view it is unsafe to rely on that article in its current form.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

I have to agree with you on that Trevor.
Until some actual source is provided, the report is unusable for any purpose other than to encourage research into if it is based on any fact.
I am sure if it is one of the researchers will find a reference.
Until then it's just another vague possability.


Steve

[RockySullivan]

No I didn't miss it but does it have any direct bearing on whether or not the torsos were murdered. or there was a serial killer at work?

Does that news item appear in any London Newspapers or anywhere else for that matter?

So from an evidential point of view it is unsafe to rely on that article in its current form.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

So this is my point, since it doesn't have to do with with cause of death it should be disregarded? It's still a new lead just posted a few hours ago, so how can you say "we cannot go any further" haha

[Observer]

No I didn't miss it but does it have any direct bearing on whether or not the torsos were murdered. or there was a serial killer at work?

Does that news item appear in any London Newspapers or anywhere else for that matter?

So from an evidential point of view it is unsafe to rely on that article in its current form.

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Absolutely. The fact that this report did not appear in any of the leading London newspapers is significant. I'd like to bet that Arnold tried to peddle his story to a number of newspapers at the time including the Morning Advertiser. By the time the story has reached Lancashire it's been garbled to include the Whitehall mystery.