Same motive = same killer

[Elamarna]

Hi all, following Jerry's thread on JTR forums, i have been thinking about the distribution of the body parts ( i do take some time off from Bucks Row).
We have a major grouping towards the West and a small less dense grouping in the East.
We however have one on its own, the outlier in the Regents canal. This strikes me as odd.
So I have looked to see if anything connects all.
The Canal system connects all. To the West of the Regents canal is the Paddington basin, where the lock keeper suspect the body part had come from, this connects with the Grand Union canal which in turn connects with the Thames at Brentford. Canals were still a major transportation means for building materials at this stage, such as those used in the construction at Whitehall,. The Regents canal itself connected with the Thames to the East at Linehouse.
Of interest is the fact that the offices of the Contractor working on Whitehall were very close to the Regents canal.

I would like to therefore propose that it is entirely possible that the canal system could have been used in the disposal of the body parts, it is at the very least a common connection.

This of course does not help with who?

I did consider making this a thread on its own, but just wondered if there were any interest in the idea.


Steve

[Abby Normal]

Although only Elizabeth Jackson was identified in the four torso cases 87-89, the women were all unmissed females of an age between 18 to 40 and some were apparently of the poor class, going by the clothing they were found with. Elizabeth Jackson was destitute and homeless. The Rainham torso wore her garters in a way the poor classes wore them, the Pinchin street torso had a roughly made chemise
.
In that case, the motive of murder and dismemberment for concealment for financial gain as in the Webster case can be ruled out.
The women could certainly have been victims of domestic violence and murdered by someone known to them, hence the need to dispose of their bodies.

An attempt at abortion via poisoning could figure in Elizabeth Jackson's case (but no abortion was performed or attempted physically) and the Whitehall torso could also have died as the result of an abortion - it can't be ruled out.

But you hit on something important in your very first sentence, Michael! That this kind of case was unusual.But here we have four cases within two years, all women within an age range of 18 to 40, all women probably from the poorer classes, one definitely an unfortunate, and dismembered and their bodies disposed of in and around the Thames.

The bodies had not been subjected to any other treatment first, as in some previous historical cases the first act was to try and burn or boil remains before dumping as a last resort. And finally, the doctor who examined them noticed similarities in the way the bodies were taken apart.

Was there an epidemic of domestic violence by men confident and skilled with a knife living near the West End and Thames all of a sudden?
Was there a particularly poor abortionist operating in the same area, killing all the women who sought out his/her services, women who were destitute and he would be risking his neck for without any financial reward?

Individually they can be explained away, but the probability of any given scenario must diminish when we look at the common factors in all four cases.?

Hi debs
Great post. and totally agree with everything you say.

[Abby Normal]

Hi all, following Jerry's thread on JTR forums, i have been thinking about the distribution of the body parts ( i do take some time off from Bucks Row).
We have a major grouping towards the West and a small less dense grouping in the East.
We however have one on its own, the outlier in the Regents canal. This strikes me as odd.
So I have looked to see if anything connects all.
The Canal system connects all. To the West of the Regents canal is the Paddington basin, where the lock keeper suspect the body part had come from, this connects with the Grand Union canal which in turn connects with the Thames at Brentford. Canals were still a major transportation means for building materials at this stage, such as those used in the construction at Whitehall,. The Regents canal itself connected with the Thames to the East at Linehouse.
Of interest is the fact that the offices of the Contractor working on Whitehall were very close to the Regents canal.

I would like to therefore propose that it is entirely possible that the canal system could have been used in the disposal of the body parts, it is at the very least a common connection.

This of course does not help with who?

I did consider making this a thread on its own, but just wondered if there were any interest in the idea.


Steve

Hi El
Interesting. Which torso was found in regents canal?

And yes very relevant! The construction/boatman/Whitehall angle has been discussed before and it is a very intriguing avenue to explore,

[Joshua Rogan]

Which torso was found in regents canal?

And yes very relevant! The construction/boatman/Whitehall angle has been discussed before and it is a very intriguing avenue to explore,

Abby,
I believe the arms and lower legs of the '87 Rainham torso were found in the canal, in two bundles. If I recall, all the Rainham torso parts were said to be wrapped in canvas and tied with rope, rather than bits of clothing and string as in the other cases. Although it was never stated that this was sail cloth, it might point toward some sort of boatman or sailor involvement.
Interestingly a third leg, a thigh, was also recovered from the canal, at about the same time, but it was thought to belong to another (older) woman, as both the torso thighs had already been found in the Thames. This rarely gets mentioned...are there any further details? Were any other parts found from this corpse?

[Trevor Marriott]

t.


Was there an epidemic of domestic violence by men confident and skilled with a knife living near the West End and Thames all of a sudden?
Was there a particularly poor abortionist operating in the same area, killing all the women who sought out his/her services, women who were destitute and he would be risking his neck for without any financial reward?

Individually they can be explained away, but the probability of any given scenario must diminish when we look at the common factors in all four cases.?

Hi Debs

But there is another scenario, just as plausible, that being that there perhaps was a combination of the two scenarios you mentioned.

After all the dismemberments were done to hide the identities. If these were prostitutes why would the killer want to hide their identities, why would he not simply leave them were they were murdered, as with the WM, and this is one major flaw in the theory that these torsos were the work of the same killer. Why the need to dismember in any event. Why risk getting caught disposing of the body parts? All point are against a serial torso killer.

The level of knife skill is something that is being over exaggerated on here by some, who have come up with their own assessment, based on them having no surgical experience whatsoever.

All this clap trap about being able to identify one butchers skills from one part of the country against one from another. I cannot see what butchery skills has to do with the dismembering its another false trail.

I refer to Dr Biggs yet again, and it is he who stated that much of Victorian doctors opinions given back then, can now be proved to have been nothing more than guesswork, yet people believed what they said back then, and is seem some still do today


"Another observation that is usually quoted in historical cases is that the 'quality' of the dismemberment somehow points towards a skilled individual. Whether this is medical / surgical / anatomical knowledge, or just prior experience of butchery / abattoir work varies, but the observation is often cited. I can see how it is tempting to jump to this conclusion, but I have to say that I would usually regard the quality of dissection as an indicator of a lack of prior knowledge or experience! Anyone who has taken the legs off a roast chicken can probably work out that the legs will come off a human with the right encouragement...

Dr Biggs - Jack the Ripper- The Real Truth http://www.trevormarriott.co.uk/jack-ripper-real-truth/

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Debra A]

Abby,
I believe the arms and lower legs of the '87 Rainham torso were found in the canal, in two bundles. If I recall, all the Rainham torso parts were said to be wrapped in canvas and tied with rope, rather than bits of clothing and string as in the other cases. Although it was never stated that this was sail cloth, it might point toward some sort of boatman or sailor involvement.
Interestingly a third leg, a thigh, was also recovered from the canal, at about the same time, but it was thought to belong to another (older) woman, as both the torso thighs had already been found in the Thames. This rarely gets mentioned...are there any further details? Were any other parts found from this corpse?

I've mentioned the extra thigh quite a few times over the years, JR. The trouble is, someone can live after having their thigh and leg amputated and as no other body parts seem to have been washed up there was no evidence of foul play in this case. Also, the extra thigh was a newspaper report and we also have turtles' fins being mistaken for hands, bears' legs being mistaken for human ones etc.
A skeleton from the Princess Alice disaster was also discovered when dredging for parts in the Rainham case IIRC-not that it has anythinf to do with any of this.

[Debra A]

Hi Debs

But there is another scenario, just as plausible, that being that there perhaps was a combination of the two scenarios you mentioned.

After all the dismemberments were done to hide the identities. If these were prostitutes why would the killer want to hide their identities, why would he not simply leave them were they were murdered, as with the WM, and this is one major flaw in the theory that these torsos were the work of the same killer. Why the need to dismember in any event. Why risk getting caught disposing of the body parts? All point are against a serial torso killer.

The level of knife skill is something that is being over exaggerated on here by some, who have come up with their own assessment, based on them having no surgical experience whatsoever.

All this clap trap about being able to identify one butchers skills from one part of the country against one from another. I cannot see what butchery skills has to do with the dismembering its another false trail.

I refer to Dr Biggs yet again, and it is he who stated that much of Victorian doctors opinions given back then, can now be proved to have been nothing more than guesswork, yet people believed what they said back then, and is seem some still do today


"Another observation that is usually quoted in historical cases is that the 'quality' of the dismemberment somehow points towards a skilled individual. Whether this is medical / surgical / anatomical knowledge, or just prior experience of butchery / abattoir work varies, but the observation is often cited. I can see how it is tempting to jump to this conclusion, but I have to say that I would usually regard the quality of dissection as an indicator of a lack of prior knowledge or experience! Anyone who has taken the legs off a roast chicken can probably work out that the legs will come off a human with the right encouragement...

Dr Biggs - Jack the Ripper- The Real Truth http://www.trevormarriott.co.uk/jack-ripper-real-truth/

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Hi Trevor,

It's often difficult in these kinds of discussions because not everyone is here discussing the same things. My observations were on the probability that the four cases 87-89 were linked to each other, based on the things they have in common. As I said, I agree that there are other scenarios possible but none will apply to all four cases; but my point was, given the rarity of these types of cases the probability that they were linked must increase because of the things they share in common?

Here's another expert opinion on the same question and one who agrees with Hebbert's viewpoint:

Essentials of Autopsy Practice Advances, Updates and Emerging Technologies
Editors: Rutty, Guy N. (Ed.) 2014

Chapter 4
The Dismembered Body
Guy N. Rutty and Sarah V. Hainsworth


"Anatomical Sites of Dismemberment

From the authors' experience, it is unusual for the body's limbs to be removed through the joints. Pathologists will know from experience that to remove an arm or leg through the shoulder or hip joints is not easy. If such a case is encountered, then it is reasonable to consider that the perpetrator has a degree of knowledge of anatomy and/or butchery skills.."

[Debra A]

Hi all, following Jerry's thread on JTR forums, i have been thinking about the distribution of the body parts ( i do take some time off from Bucks Row).
We have a major grouping towards the West and a small less dense grouping in the East.
We however have one on its own, the outlier in the Regents canal. This strikes me as odd.
So I have looked to see if anything connects all.
The Canal system connects all. To the West of the Regents canal is the Paddington basin, where the lock keeper suspect the body part had come from, this connects with the Grand Union canal which in turn connects with the Thames at Brentford. Canals were still a major transportation means for building materials at this stage, such as those used in the construction at Whitehall,. The Regents canal itself connected with the Thames to the East at Linehouse.
Of interest is the fact that the offices of the Contractor working on Whitehall were very close to the Regents canal.

I would like to therefore propose that it is entirely possible that the canal system could have been used in the disposal of the body parts, it is at the very least a common connection.

This of course does not help with who?

I did consider making this a thread on its own, but just wondered if there were any interest in the idea.


Steve

That's a very interesting idea, Steve. I would certainly like to see a thread about it.
I've always been suspicious about Ginger Nell claiming she warned Elizabeth Jackson about dangerous bargemen in the area, both Nell and Jenny Lee have me wondering if they were being entirely honest, but maybe there is something in what Nell said.

[Trevor Marriott]

Hi Trevor,

It's often difficult in these kinds of discussions because not everyone is here discussing the same things. My observations were on the probability that the four cases 87-89 were linked to each other, based on the things they have in common. As I said, I agree that there are other scenarios possible but none will apply to all four cases; but my point was, given the rarity of these types of cases the probability that they were linked must increase because of the things they share in common?

Here's another expert opinion on the same question and one who agrees with Hebbert's viewpoint:

Essentials of Autopsy Practice Advances, Updates and Emerging Technologies
Editors: Rutty, Guy N. (Ed.) 2014

Chapter 4
The Dismembered Body
Guy N. Rutty and Sarah V. Hainsworth


"Anatomical Sites of Dismemberment

From the authors' experience, it is unusual for the body's limbs to be removed through the joints. Pathologists will know from experience that to remove an arm or leg through the shoulder or hip joints is not easy. If such a case is encountered, then it is reasonable to consider that the perpetrator has a degree of knowledge of anatomy and/or butchery skills.."

Or, as Dr Biggs infers no skills at all needed. medical or butchery !

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Pcdunn]

He didn't know much about them, if his comments about "sweeping cuts" are anything to go by.

Sweeping generalisation, more like.

Good one, Sam!

Agreed, he was based too far away to have been the culprit.

[Pcdunn]

Canal as connection

Hi all, following Jerry's thread on JTR forums, i have been thinking about the distribution of the body parts ( i do take some time off from Bucks Row).
We have a major grouping towards the West and a small less dense grouping in the East.
We however have one on its own, the outlier in the Regents canal. This strikes me as odd.
So I have looked to see if anything connects all.
The Canal system connects all. To the West of the Regents canal is the Paddington basin, where the lock keeper suspect the body part had come from, this connects with the Grand Union canal which in turn connects with the Thames at Brentford. Canals were still a major transportation means for building materials at this stage, such as those used in the construction at Whitehall,. The Regents canal itself connected with the Thames to the East at Linehouse.
Of interest is the fact that the offices of the Contractor working on Whitehall were very close to the Regents canal.

I would like to therefore propose that it is entirely possible that the canal system could have been used in the disposal of the body parts, it is at the very least a common connection.

This of course does not help with who?

I did consider making this a thread on its own, but just wondered if there were any interest in the idea.


Steve

Hi, Steve.

I think it's an interesting idea, and would like to know more about the canals, the river, and these "dangerous boatmen" we've heard were plying their crafts up and down at the time.

[MrBarnett]

Hi all, following Jerry's thread on JTR forums, i have been thinking about the distribution of the body parts ( i do take some time off from Bucks Row).
We have a major grouping towards the West and a small less dense grouping in the East.
We however have one on its own, the outlier in the Regents canal. This strikes me as odd.
So I have looked to see if anything connects all.
The Canal system connects all. To the West of the Regents canal is the Paddington basin, where the lock keeper suspect the body part had come from, this connects with the Grand Union canal which in turn connects with the Thames at Brentford. Canals were still a major transportation means for building materials at this stage, such as those used in the construction at Whitehall,. The Regents canal itself connected with the Thames to the East at Linehouse.
Of interest is the fact that the offices of the Contractor working on Whitehall were very close to the Regents canal.

I would like to therefore propose that it is entirely possible that the canal system could have been used in the disposal of the body parts, it is at the very least a common connection.

This of course does not help with who?

I did consider making this a thread on its own, but just wondered if there were any interest in the idea.


Steve

Yes, Steve, it's a very interesting idea.

I believe the stone for the NS building came from the west of England and was probably transported by train. The timber was most likely imported but may have gone East to West along the Regent's Canal. Bricks, cement etc? That would be interesting to research.

[jerryd]

Yes, Steve, it's a very interesting idea.

I believe the stone for the NS building came from the west of England and was probably transported by train. The timber was most likely imported but may have gone East to West along the Regent's Canal. Bricks, cement etc? That would be interesting to research.

I posted this on a thread about J.T Chappel awhile back. Chappel's yard is where the "Pimlico arm" was found as you know. You can see the barges working from his yard down under the tunnel into the Thames. Chappel also owned a brick company about 16 miles east of Rainham and had another timber yard near Battersea. He also owned and operated a couple of locomotives. Debs noticed something interesting in this ad in the mention of sashes. Sash cords were used in packaging some of the parts.



Sept 7, 1889. Timber and Plywood, Volume 10

[MrBarnett]

I posted this on a thread about J.T Chappel awhile back. Chappel's yard is where the "Pimlico arm" was found as you know. You can see the barges working from his yard down under the tunnel into the Thames. Chappel also owned a brick company about 16 miles east of Rainham and had another timber yard near Battersea. He also owned and operated a couple of locomotives. Debs noticed something interesting in this ad in the mention of sashes. Sash cords were used in packaging some of the parts.



Sept 7, 1889. Timber and Plywood, Volume 10

Yes, Jerry, I remember that. Nice find.

[elmore 77]

Thomas Bond lived 50yds from the eventual deposition site at Norman Shaw North during the construction of the opera house. He had business connections at Bedford Square, Finsbury Circus, London Bridge, Liverpool Street Station and possibly St. Katherines Dock. He can be placed on the road that runs along the river from Westminster to Battersea Bridge because his mother-in-law lives half a mile north of the bridge. So we can place him a few feet away from the front door of Shelley House. In 1887 he gave evidence in two infanticide cases. One in which a girl was left to die in a bush by her mother and another in which the body was concealed in a cellar (ring any bells?). In 1873 under Bond's guidance, the other doctors sewed the corpse back together thus providing a potential Ripperesque joke when part of Liz Jackson was left at Shelley House. Interesting, but not enough to hang him. However, if Bond was Jack, all bets are off, yes?
I see this thread has returned to the inevitable question as to the killer's skill level.
It's a matter of opinion and therefore irrelevant. The people who actually witnessed the wounds and examined them would probably have the best idea, but worrying about it won't lead anywhere because it's the wrong question.
The right question is this-
Bond states that the killer had no skill whatsoever. Was he:
a) correct
b) wrong because he was mistaken, or
c) wrong by design ?
The Ice Man is on Channel 4 tonight, Kuklinski is a good template for Jack, I reckon, I've quoted him on my Legal Notice page if you want to see it, cheers.
P.S. Don't worry about M.O. and all that bosh.