Same motive = same killer

[Fisherman]

It can probably be attributed to a Times article of October 23rd 1888 when Waring is giving evidence about the finding of the left leg. He goes on to say that the leg was buried 12 inches under the soil but the Times have obviously typed 'arm' mistakenly in this one sentence, instead of leg (as is used the rest of article) as the whole discussion is Waring's evidence on the finding of the leg by Smoker. . Next up to give evidence is his companion, Angle, and he states he thought the leg was buried less than the 12 inches from the surface Waring described. He thought closer to four or five inches.

A typo, speed reading....and a myth is born.

Is Trow and Gordon's source for the arm being found in the vault given? Is it the Times?

Gordon quotes the Times on the passage leading up to the "find" of the arm, but does not provide any source for the actual passage about the buried arm. Trow does the exact same thing, quoting the exact same passage as Gordon about the prelude, and then leaves us hanging about the find of the arm.
Reasonably, it is the Times article you speak of that was used, but it seems neither man read it and understood that there was a problem...

[Debra A]

Here's that Times report. I'm confident this is the source of Trow and Gordon's assertion that an arm was found buried at 12 inches below the leg:

Times October 23rd 1888

" Mr Jasper Waring, who stated that he was a country correspondent to a news agency, then deposed to the circumstances with regard to the finding of the leg and foot last Wednesday. He deposed that he went into the place where the body was found on the 17th inst. He was accompanied by another correspondent, and he detailed the circumstances (narrated last Thursday in the Times) under which the dog indicated the place where the leg was buried. The place, he said, where the leg was found was in the opposite side of the same recess where the body was found. The arm was found some 12 inches down. The dog refused to work when many police came, as they did soon after. There was no appearance in the earth there of its having been disturbed for some time. The earth was dug up also in the next recess, where the dog scented, and although nothing was found the witness had a strong opinion that something had been there.
The dog was a Russian Terrier.
Mr. Angle, a journalist, who accompanied the previous witness, said he has an impression that the earth where the leg was concealed was a little higher than the other ground. He thought the leg was found at only a depth of four or five inches when the stones were removed. The ground where the leg was discovered was very hard, as if it had been trodden upon.
The witness Hedge, the labourer, who was examined on the last occassion, deposed to being present when the leg was found as detailed by the previous witnesses..."

Bond and Hebbert then give evidence about the comparison of the leg found in the vault to the arm found....meaning the arm found at Pimlico and the question of whether they belonged to the same body. This examination of leg, torso and arm is what is detailed in Hebebrt's lectures. Hebbert examined and reported on the arm when it was found early September.


See the rogue arm?

[Fisherman]

Here's that Times report. I'm confident this is the source of Trow and Gordon's assertion that an arm was found buried at 12 inches below the leg:

Times October 23rd 1888

" Mr Jasper Waring, who stated that he was a country correspondent to a news agency, then deposed to the circumstances with regard to the finding of the leg and foot last Wednesday. He deposed that he went into the place where the body was found on the 17th inst. He was accompanied by another correspondent, and he detailed the circumstances (narrated last Thursday in the Times) under which the dog indicated the place where the leg was buried. The place, he said, where the leg was found was in the opposite side of the same recess where the body was found. The arm was found some 12 inches down. The dog refused to work when many police came, as they did soon after. There was no appearance in the earth there of its having been disturbed for some time. The earth was dug up also in the next recess, where the dog scented, and although nothing was found the witness had a strong opinion that something had been there.
The dog was a Russian Terrier.
Mr. Angle, a journalist, who accompanied the previous witness, said he has an impression that the earth where the leg was concealed was a little higher than the other ground. He thought the leg was found at only a depth of four or five inches when the stones were removed. The ground where the leg was discovered was very hard, as if it had been trodden upon.
The witness Hedge, the labourer, who was examined on the last occassion, deposed to being present when the leg was found as detailed by the previous witnesses..."

Bond and Hebbert then give evidence about the comparison of the leg found in the vault to the arm found....meaning the arm found at Pimlico and the question of whether they belonged to the same body. This examination of leg, torso and arm is what is detailed in Hebebrt's lectures. Hebbert examined and reported on the arm when it was found early September.


See the rogue arm?

I do, Debra. And yes, that will be the culprit of the drama. It´s a bummer the first arm had already been found, since that leaves the reader to speculate that the article touched on the other arm. I can understand the confusion - at least to a degree.

The best bit by far is that we are informed about the existence of a journalist incredibly named Mr Angle! One has to wonder if there are TWO whoppers hidden in that article!

[Debra A]

I do, Debra. And yes, that will be the culprit of the drama. It´s a bummer the first arm had already been found, since that leaves the reader to speculate that the article touched on the other arm. I can understand the confusion - at least to a degree.

The best bit by far is that we are informed about the existence of a journalist incredibly named Mr Angle! One has to wonder if there are TWO whoppers hidden in that article!

I can understand the confusion if someone is unfamiliar with the exact details of the case and done limited research, yeah.


Unlike the arm, Mr Angle was real. I've done quite a bit of research in the past on him because I am a torso anorak! He's an interesting character. After leaving journalism in 1890 he became quite well known as a conjurer, working alongside his wife. I posted a pic of him. dove in hand, on forums but it's disappeared like all the others.

[Joshua Rogan]

Unlike the arm, Mr Angle was real......After leaving journalism in 1890 he became quite well known as a conjurer

Well, that explains how he made the arm mysteriously appear in the vault!

[Fisherman]

I can understand the confusion if someone is unfamiliar with the exact details of the case and done limited research, yeah.


Unlike the arm, Mr Angle was real. I've done quite a bit of research in the past on him because I am a torso anorak! He's an interesting character. After leaving journalism in 1890 he became quite well known as a conjurer, working alongside his wife. I posted a pic of him. dove in hand, on forums but it's disappeared like all the others.

Well, there you are - reality never seizes to surprise! I actually used to collect people with names that are somehow indicative of their professions, but they are all Swedish so you won´t see the fun of it. If I was to translate an example, I could use the top economist of a bank called Nordea. Her name is Anna-Lisa Winsth, the surname translating into "profit"...

I trust you can see the fun of Mr Angles name, anyway!

[Joshua Rogan]

Talking of names, has anyone investigated a possible connection between Frederick Moore, finder of the Pimlico arm, and Jim Moore, witness to the finding of the Lambeth arm?

[Debra A]

Well, there you are - reality never seizes to surprise! I actually used to collect people with names that are somehow indicative of their professions, but they are all Swedish so you won´t see the fun of it. If I was to translate an example, I could use the top economist of a bank called Nordea. Her name is Anna-Lisa Winsth, the surname translating into "profit"...

I trust you can see the fun of Mr Angles name, anyway!

TBH, it didn't immediately hit me. I was wondering if you thought he was a mathematician as well.

[Fisherman]

TBH, it didn't immediately hit me. I was wondering if you thought he was a mathematician as well.

Being a journalist myself, it hit me like a ton of bricks. As for mathematics and me, let´s just say I saw no other angle than the journalistic one...

[Debra A]

Talking of names, has anyone investigated a possible connection between Frederick Moore, finder of the Pimlico arm, and Jim Moore, witness to the finding of the Lambeth arm?

I don't recall anyone ever mentioning they had, JR. Maybe Jerry has, if anyone.

[Debra A]

Well, that explains how he made the arm mysteriously appear in the vault!

Maybe his sawing a woman in half debut went horribly wrong and he was depositing the evidence.

[Abby Normal]

Maybe his sawing a woman in half debut went horribly wrong and he was depositing the evidence.

LOL!!

[elmore 77]

Just to clarify, I'm not Pierre but part of my interest in Bond came about because of somebody's suggestion that he was his suspect. Bond was on Exmoor on 9th Sept. 1889 and was reported to be out of London on the 10th, but that doesn't mean he was. I hope you're all aware Bond lived next door during the construction of the opera house.

[Elamarna]

He could have moved the dumping site to the east of London with the Rainham victim and reduced that risk, but he did not. Instead he thew the legs in Regents Canal, where they would decisively NOT be flushed out to sea.

Sorry forgot to mention earlier that the canal enters the Thames at Limehouse.


Steve

[Joshua Rogan]

Sorry forgot to mention earlier that the canal enters the Thames at Limehouse, and so it would be possible.

Equally they could have entered the canal from the river. Though only theoretically, I'd have thought - there's not much of a current in a canal. And it still took several months to find them.
Incidentally, weren't there actually three legs found in the canal? Only two (naturally) matched the Rainham remains. Does that mean there's a lost torso murder?