Same motive = same killer

[Debra A]

A question for Debra:

I am in the process or reading Robs article now, and I find it it quotes Tomas Neville as saying that "The dismemberment seems to have been done without any object except the removal of the arm from the shoulder, for what reason of course I cannot fathom. It certainly to me suggests murder. I cannot imagine in what other light to regard it. The muscles were clean cut through, so that the knife used must have been very sharp; and the bone was WRENCHED FROM THE SOCKET."

Then the article goes on to say that "Hebbert believed the arm was cut off by a person who, while not necessarily an anatomist, certainly knew what he was doing - someone who Hebbert thought knew where the joints were and cut them regularly. The arm had been separated with seven cuts, which had evidently been done with a very sharp knife, and then the bone was SAWN THROUGH."

But if the bone is exposed by way of knife and then wrenched from the socket, why would it be sawn through...?

It all sounds a bit weird to me. Do you have an idea what happened?

Dr Neville was perhaps trying to convey the idea that the arm had not been removed for any medical or anatomical reasons and had been removed for some other reason, in a way that wasn't as a doctor or surgeon would do it. He's describing removal of the arm through the shoulder joint itself as opposed to sawing through the humerus?

Hebbert seems to be saying a similar thing, describing how the joints had been opened and disarticulated, a fine tooth saw was apparently used to accomplish this according to him.
The joints would have had to have been wrenched and cut through with a knife or saw to separate the ligaments and tendons? Not the bone itself.
The joints were exposed by cutting through the skin covering them, all around in a circle, with small precise cuts.

It was noted that doctors usually, though not exclusively, perform amputations by sawing through the bone alone, away from a joint area. They also cut the skin in a way that leaves them with large flaps of skin attached to the body so that the skin can be used to close the end of the site and provide cushioning.

Different joints would have probably required a different amount of effort to wrench apart, I believe the hip and shoulder joints are similar types of joints but the knee is different.

[Fisherman]

Dr Neville was perhaps trying to convey the idea that the arm had not been removed for any medical or anatomical reasons and had been removed for some other reason, in a way that wasn't as a doctor or surgeon would do it. He's describing removal of the arm through the shoulder joint itself as opposed to sawing through the humerus?

Hebbert seems to be saying a similar thing, describing how the joints had been opened and disarticulated, a fine tooth saw was apparently used to accomplish this according to him.
The joints would have had to have been wrenched and cut through with a knife or saw to separate the ligaments and tendons? Not the bone itself.
The joints were exposed by cutting through the skin covering them, all around in a circle, with small precise cuts.

It was noted that doctors usually, though not exclusively, perform amputations by sawing through the bone alone, away from a joint area. They also cut the skin in a way that leaves them with large flaps of skin attached to the body so that the skin can be used to close the end of the site and provide cushioning.

Different joints would have probably required a different amount of effort to wrench apart, I believe the hip and shoulder joints are similar types of joints but the knee is different.

Hm. I was kind of thinking about how I take the bone out of a lamb steak by way of opening up the joint with a knife and then wrenching the bone out of the joint - no sawing required there! And you seem to say that Hebberts suggestion is that the saw was used on the ligaments and tendons - but Hebbert is being quoted as having said that the bone itself was cut through.

Is it me being slow on the uptake or is something wrong here...?

[Fisherman]

I once bought a book about torso murders. It cost me an arm and a leg.

Headless of you.

[RockySullivan]

The moment I feel I need someone to tell me that I am deluded, whacky, looking for a payday or just plain dumb.

[Fisherman]

Okay, I just found the other source that mentioned Smoker finding the missing arm - and it´s Gordon:
"The nighttime search did indeed bring new evidence to light in the form of the missing left arm. Six inches deeper than where the left leg and foot had been discovered, the dog, despite not being in top form, found the missing limb. The ground had become packed in, and it was clear that the arm had been in the ground for some weeks."

Where on earth did they get it from...? It very strange. And Gordons list of sources is very imprecise and lacking.

[Elamarna]

Okay, I just found the other source that mentioned Smoker finding the missing arm - and it´s Gordon:
"The nighttime search did indeed bring new evidence to light in the form of the missing left arm. Six inches deeper than where the left leg and foot had been discovered, the dog, despite not being in top form, found the missing limb. The ground had become packed in, and it was clear that the arm had been in the ground for some weeks."

Where on earth did they get it from...? It very strange. And Gordons list of sources is very imprecise and lacking.

Christer

Must be an early forerunner of the school which suggests we don't need sources and academic style research is not required..


Steve

[RockySullivan]

Okay, I just found the other source that mentioned Smoker finding the missing arm - and it´s Gordon:
"The nighttime search did indeed bring new evidence to light in the form of the missing left arm. Six inches deeper than where the left leg and foot had been discovered, the dog, despite not being in top form, found the missing limb. The ground had become packed in, and it was clear that the arm had been in the ground for some weeks."

Where on earth did they get it from...? It very strange. And Gordons list of sources is very imprecise and lacking.

What's the source? Why would the killer bury the body parts if he wanted them found?

[RockySullivan]

Christer,

Have you looked at "The Forgotten Ripper" by Patrick J Gallagher?

If not it's the transcribed press reports on the Torsos 87-89, so it obviously does not cover 73.

Very useful I think for a research tool. Probably more accurate than Trow.


Steve

What the **** how did I miss this I've been praying for this for years

[Fisherman]

Christer

Must be an early forerunner of the school which suggests we don't need sources and academic style research is not required..


Steve

It certainly seems so. But I would like to see the source just the same!

[Fisherman]

What's the source? Why would the killer bury the body parts if he wanted them found?

Like I have been telling you, I am only to happy to explain it to you once you have either apologized for your earlier calling me things - or if you promise that it will not happen again. We cannot have that kind of a debate.

[Sam Flynn]

Debs, Fish

The statements needn't be mutually exclusive. The arm might have been sawn through (e.g. at the elbow and/or forearm) AND the remainder wrenched out at the shoulder. Like your lamb joint, you wouldn't cut or saw the head of the humerus from its socket; it's too "embedded" to get a saw in there.

[Sam Flynn]

Must be an early forerunner of the school which suggests we don't need sources and academic style research is not required..

Early forerunner? Gordon's book was only published 15 years ago.

[Fisherman]

Debs, Fish

The statements needn't be mutually exclusive. The arm might have been sawn through (e.g. at the elbow and/or forearm) AND the remainder wrenched out at the shoulder. Like your lamb joint, you wouldn't cut or saw the head of the humerus from its socket; it's too "embedded" to get a saw in there.

That is of course correct, but I think that the article was simply wrong - I checked out Hebberts "A System of Legal Medicine", and it says nothing about the bone being sawn through but clearly speaks of a disarticulation leaving the bone intact.

A red herring, therefore, as it seems.

[Fisherman]

Early forerunner? Gordon's book was only published 15 years ago.

Also true - but material tend to age quickly in this business.

[Harry D]

Early forerunner? Gordon's book was only published 15 years ago.

Sam, I've probably missed it but what's your take on the Torsos? Do you attribute any of them to a separate serial killer or do you think they were mostly unrelated murders/botched abortions/etc.?