Same motive = same killer

[Herlock Sholmes]

There´s no need for you to be embarrassed, Herlock. To begin with, I am quite aware that you have a good grasp of the case we are discussing, and to carry on, far from being embarrassed you should be proud of yourself for focusing on the right things. The best of luck with you dad!

Thank you for that Christer My knowledge of this case is nowhere near that of yourself and others on here but I can usually avoid 'howlers.' Call it 'brain overload.'

[Herlock Sholmes]

Same from me



Steve

Thanks for that Steve.

[Michael W Richards]

Indeed, and I don't believe that the Ripper's victims could have been traced back to him. The Ripper's biggest challenge was to avoid being caught in the act of murder, which was a very real danger given his method of eviscerating women in public. This was something that the torso murderers didn't have to worry about, of course.

I believe Sam that egress posed great risk as well, particularly if, as is in the popular mainstream belief, he didn't choose the venues. The acts must speak for themselves and the specific nature of the crimes shouldn't be muddied with storylines that have connective elements with other murders.

The person, or people, who completely dismembered the victims acted in a specific manner. As did the killer, or killers, of Polly and Annie. But the specifics are not the same in these respective cases, as they are by my perspective, different within the Canonical Group.

People, like Fisherman, believe that its now up to a storyline to solve these riddles. That weve exhausted the available evidence and since its still inconclusive we must look for a story, perhaps based on a single individual, that will finally give us some answers.

I personally believe that the existing evidence still has power, that in my opinion it can be used to reduce the number of victims attributed to the perpetrator(s) of the murders in the Fall of 88, not expand the characteristics into realms that are incompatible. I think in blunt terms that segmenting someone is very specific. Slitting their throats isn't.

[Debra A]

Yes, there is certainly no established itinerary - but the contemporary view was that the leg and arm was dumped beforehand (excuse the appalling pun...!)

Hi Christer,
Most contemporary sources I've read suggest the lower leg with foot still attached and the trunk of the woman were placed in the vault at the same time. The explanation for the burial was that the leg had been covered over with earth when drainage was dug in the vault some weeks earlier and the earth piled in the corner on top of the leg without noticing it. This also helped account for the differing stages of decomposition. The trunk had decomposed quicker through exposure to the air, whilst the leg had decomposed at a slower rate because it was buried. Decomposition was further along in the part of the foot that was slightly exposed to the air.

Workmen had not smelt any rotting flesh for any amount of time, not even the day when the trunk was definitely known to be there and was discovered.

There was no arm found in the vault. The arm connected to this case was found in the Thames two weeks before the torso was discovered.

[Fisherman]

[QUOTE=Michael W Richards;432802]
People, like Fisherman,

Hello there - I am one of a kind, y´a know!

believe that its now up to a storyline to solve these riddles.

No, I think there is sufficient evidene to very strongly implicate that the two series were committed by the same individual.

That weve exhausted the available evidence and since its still inconclusive we must look for a story, perhaps based on a single individual, that will finally give us some answers.

We have not exhausted the evidence. We have missed out on a fair part of it, and failed to see it´s relevance. As for single individuals, I am trying to keep the two issues of the shared identity or the two serialists and Charles Lechmere apart. He will enter the drama in due course, but until he does so, I don´t think I answer to your description. I don´t even think history does.

I personally believe that the existing evidence still has power, that in my opinion it can be used to reduce the number of victims attributed to the perpetrator(s) of the murders in the Fall of 88, not expand the characteristics into realms that are incompatible. I think in blunt terms that segmenting someone is very specific. Slitting their throats isn't.

How about opening up their abdomens and taking out inner organs? How about cutting away their abdominal walls in flaps? How do these parameters come across to you?

[Fisherman]

Hi Christer,
Most contemporary sources I've read suggest the lower leg with foot still attached and the trunk of the woman were placed in the vault at the same time. The explanation for the burial was that the leg had been covered over with earth when drainage was dug in the vault some weeks earlier and the earth piled in the corner on top of the leg without noticing it. This also helped account for the differing stages of decomposition. The trunk had decomposed quicker through exposure to the air, whilst the leg had decomposed at a slower rate because it was buried. Decomposition was further along in the part of the foot that was slightly exposed to the air.

Workmen had not smelt any rotting flesh for any amount of time, not even the day when the trunk was definitely known to be there and was discovered.

There was no arm found in the vault. The arm connected to this case was found in the Thames two weeks before the torso was discovered.

Trow writes that Jasper Warings dog found the missing arm (the other one was floating in the Thames, of course) "buried below where it hand found the leg and foot". I always thought that was correct.

But it seems he cannot get it right however hard he tries?

Yes, I am aware of the idea that the limb/s could have been placed in the vault at the same time as the torso, but I think it must be left open. And I am fascinated with the possibility that the torso could have been sprinkled with Condy´s fluid, something that was not said about the limb/s.

Anyways, there are more indicators speaking about a lesser interest on behalf of the killer for the limbs than for the torsos...

[Abby Normal]

Yes, Anatomical Venus. I remember there was a thread about that sometime ago, but I hadn't given it any more thought until recently.



If not Frankenstein's monster or an Anatomical Venus, then you've stumped me! I look forward to when you're ready to reveal your theory.

Hi Zena
yeah I'm stumped too-I thought for sure it was along those lines-as the torsoripper was keeping certain parts, and discarding parts at certain times.

Perhaps the focus isn't on what he kept but what he got rid of?

also re anatomical venus-the display at the museum closed the same year the first torso appeared. I found that a rather interesting coincidence.

[Abby Normal]

Trow writes that Jasper Warings dog found the missing arm (the other one was floating in the Thames, of course) "buried below where it hand found the leg and foot". I always thought that was correct.

But it seems he cannot get it right however hard he tries?

Yes, I am aware of the idea that the limb/s could have been placed in the vault at the same time as the torso, but I think it must be left open. And I am fascinated with the possibility that the torso could have been sprinkled with Condy´s fluid, something that was not said about the limb/s.

Anyways, there are more indicators speaking about a lesser interest on behalf of the killer for the limbs than for the torsos...

now I'm no detective, but I do believe that may be a hint.

[Debra A]

Trow writes that Jasper Warings dog found the missing arm (the other one was floating in the Thames, of course) "buried below where it hand found the leg and foot". I always thought that was correct.

But it seems he cannot get it right however hard he tries?

Yes, I am aware of the idea that the limb/s could have been placed in the vault at the same time as the torso, but I think it must be left open. And I am fascinated with the possibility that the torso could have been sprinkled with Condy´s fluid, something that was not said about the limb/s.

Anyways, there are more indicators speaking about a lesser interest on behalf of the killer for the limbs than for the torsos...

Jasper Waring's dog, Smoker, found the leg and foot. This is supported by the list of portions found in Hebbert's 1888 Forensic Lectures and A System of Legal Medicine textbook. I have no idea where Trow got the arm thing from. I have not come across it any source. Perhaps there was one mistaken mention?

I know it has been suggested in recent times that the leg and trunk were placed separately.

[Fisherman]

A question for Debra:

I am in the process or reading Robs article now, and I find it it quotes Tomas Neville as saying that "The dismemberment seems to have been done without any object except the removal of the arm from the shoulder, for what reason of course I cannot fathom. It certainly to me suggests murder. I cannot imagine in what other light to regard it. The muscles were clean cut through, so that the knife used must have been very sharp; and the bone was WRENCHED FROM THE SOCKET."

Then the article goes on to say that "Hebbert believed the arm was cut off by a person who, while not necessarily an anatomist, certainly knew what he was doing - someone who Hebbert thought knew where the joints were and cut them regularly. The arm had been separated with seven cuts, which had evidently been done with a very sharp knife, and then the bone was SAWN THROUGH."

But if the bone is exposed by way of knife and then wrenched from the socket, why would it be sawn through...?

It all sounds a bit weird to me. Do you have an idea what happened?

[Fisherman]

Jasper Waring's dog, Smoker, found the leg and foot. This is supported by the list of portions found in Hebbert's 1888 Forensic Lectures and A System of Legal Medicine textbook. I have no idea where Trow got the arm thing from. I have not come across it any source. Perhaps there was one mistaken mention?

I know it has been suggested in recent times that the leg and trunk were placed separately.

I know that I have somewhere seen the suggestion that Smoker made finds on two different levels, just as Trow suggests. But I remember that it was not worded the way Trow words it, and so I think that this source - whichever it was - may have been the one Trow used.

I will try and keep an eye open for it, but don´t hold your breath...

[Elamarna]

Christer,

Have you looked at "The Forgotten Ripper" by Patrick J Gallagher?

If not it's the transcribed press reports on the Torsos 87-89, so it obviously does not cover 73.

Very useful I think for a research tool. Probably more accurate than Trow.


Steve

[Fisherman]

Christer,

Have you looked at "The Forgotten Ripper" by Patrick J Gallagher?

If not it's the transcribed press reports on the Torsos 87-89, so it obviously does not cover 73.

Very useful I think for a research tool. Probably more accurate than Trow.


Steve

I haven´t, no. I remember seeing the book marketed a year or two ago, but I never came around to buying it. I guess I wanted to hear somebodys view before I considered buying it. And then it went silent.

Just checked on Amazon. Nobody has reviewed it..?! And about the author, it is said that: "Patrick Gallagher was born and raised in the town of Wagga Wagga, NSW, Australia. Now based in Canberra, he works as a television cameraman and film-maker. He has, however, had a lifelong interest in all things strange and paranormal, and it is his research in this area that he hopes to share with others through his books."

"All things strange and paranormal". Don´t they want to sell any copies?

[Elamarna]

I haven´t, no. I remember seeing the book marketed a year or two ago, but I never came around to buying it. I guess I wanted to hear somebodys view before I considered buying it. And then it went silent.

Just checked on Amazon. Nobody has reviewed it..?! And about the author, it is said that: "Patrick Gallagher was born and raised in the town of Wagga Wagga, NSW, Australia. Now based in Canberra, he works as a television cameraman and film-maker. He has, however, had a lifelong interest in all things strange and paranormal, and it is his research in this area that he hopes to share with others through his books."

"All things strange and paranormal". Don´t they want to sell any copies?

I agree, some people don't help themselves.
For the most is just straight transcripts . I have the kindle version myself.
Worth the buy I think, if you don't already have them all in one place.

No review? Must have slipped by me, I try and give a review of any Ripper books I purchase.

All the best




Steve

[Sam Flynn]

I once bought a book about torso murders. It cost me an arm and a leg.