Same motive = same killer

[Abby Normal]

I think the point is just to be able to dispose of them where you won't be seen, do it quickly and get the **** out of there. You aren't going to find a way to make the body disappear. The Whitehall torso was a hidden place where perhaps the killer thought he could bury the parts. If not he might atleast buy a little time before it's found. And the more time between the victim's disappearance and when she's identified the better it is for the killer.

Hi rocky

I think the point is just to be able to dispose of them where you won't be seen, do it quickly and get the **** out of there.

right- so why throw most of the parts of one victim in the river and another part onto the Shelley estate?

Its as Me and others and now Debs have been saying. something else is going on here than just trying to get rid of quickly.

why haul the Whitehall torso into the vault of a currently being contructed building, the new police station no less, which would have been very difficult and risky?

why haul the pinchin street torso half way cross town and dump in the street(yeah that's going to delay discovery!)??

why throw parts of Jackson into the river but her torso in the park??

as ive said a million times-something is going on here and it isn't just to get rid of the body parts, or conceal them. the killer took great lengths to distribute them where he wanted them.
Just saying he was dumping them to get rid of them , or to just separate them dosnt do it.

[Abby Normal]

Was he showing off? Or the parts he disjointed he didn’t want them damaged because he was using those parts for something?

Fiiiiiishy??
you havnt responded to this yet. Am I getting warmer?

did he want to use the parts he disjointed for something?

do we have a Frankenstein like thing going on here?

You know-Shelley estate thigh and all that???

[jerryd]

Hi rocky

right- so why throw most of the parts of one victim in the river and another part onto the Shelley estate?

Its as Me and others and now Debs have been saying. something else is going on here than just trying to get rid of quickly.

why haul the Whitehall torso into the vault of a currently being contructed building, the new police station no less, which would have been very difficult and risky?

why haul the pinchin street torso half way cross town and dump in the street(yeah that's going to delay discovery!)??

why throw parts of Jackson into the river but her torso in the park??

as ive said a million times-something is going on here and it isn't just to get rid of the body parts, or conceal them. the killer took great lengths to distribute them where he wanted them.
Just saying he was dumping them to get rid of them , or to just separate them dosnt do it.

Abby,

In addition to what you have said here, the victims were cut up very close to their deaths according to the doctors. The Whitehall victim's arm seems to have been discarded very soon after death. Her torso, however, found in the vault, showed signs of the use of Condy's fluid which masks smell and is a preservant. The killer could have used quick lime instead, which would have made the body decay faster and reduce it to bone quicker, but he didn't. He must have stored the torso at his bolthole for some period of time before depositing it in the vault. I think he was waiting for the right time to get her body in there. Whether or not that was days, or weeks, I don't know. Dr. Bond seems to think she was in there since mid to late August. The examination of the arm by Dr. Neville and six witnesses working at the site throw doubt (for me anyways) onto Bond's conclusion.

[RockySullivan]

Abby,

In addition to what you have said here, the victims were cut up very close to their deaths according to the doctors. The Whitehall victim's arm seems to have been discarded very soon after death. Her torso, however, found in the vault, showed signs of the use of Condy's fluid which masks smell and is a preservant. The killer could have used quick lime instead, which would have made the body decay faster and reduce it to bone quicker, but he didn't. He must have stored the torso at his bolthole for some period of time before depositing it in the vault. I think he was waiting for the right time to get her body in there. Whether or not that was days, or weeks, I don't know. Dr. Bond seems to think she was in there since mid to late August. The examination of the arm by Dr. Neville and six witnesses working at the site throw doubt onto Bond's conclusion.

jer, don't you think the reason condy's fluid was used was to hide the smell while the killer kept the parts until he could dispose of them?

[RockySullivan]

Jer, I know you've been over this before..but do you think it is a coincidence that Condy's fluid was developed in Battersea at old factory Condy's mother inherited. How popular was the chemical and in what professions was it used? Did the killer use Condy's fluid and not the powder/crystal form?
From the wiki: Advertisements that appeared in the Kingston newspaper The Gleaner[2] during the 1860s and 1870s claimed that Condy’s fluid was used
To prevent the communication of Infectious Diseases
To purify Sick Rooms and the Wards of Hospitals and Crowded Places.
To disinfect water
To purify Stagnant Water
To purify Cattle Dog and where offensive matter lies about.
To ensure Purity of Water employed for drinking -which frequently contains much organic matter
To purify fever wards or -in cases of death- from a contagious disease or to prevent offensive effluvia arising from a dead body
To purify sick persons
To deprive Night-chairs of offensive odour
To purify the atmosphere of Rooms in which there are Dead for the Visits of Undertakers and Jurymen
To sweeten Musty odours
To destroy Canker and Fungus on Trees
To purify Bilge Water in a Ship's Well To parity with the Interior or Hold of a Ship
To extirpate from Fowl-Houses and to preserve the health of Fowl
To disinfect the Sail while emptying Cess-pools

[Abby Normal]

Abby,

In addition to what you have said here, the victims were cut up very close to their deaths according to the doctors. The Whitehall victim's arm seems to have been discarded very soon after death. Her torso, however, found in the vault, showed signs of the use of Condy's fluid which masks smell and is a preservant. The killer could have used quick lime instead, which would have made the body decay faster and reduce it to bone quicker, but he didn't. He must have stored the torso at his bolthole for some period of time before depositing it in the vault. I think he was waiting for the right time to get her body in there. Whether or not that was days, or weeks, I don't know. Dr. Bond seems to think she was in there since mid to late August. The examination of the arm by Dr. Neville and six witnesses working at the site throw doubt (for me anyways) onto Bond's conclusion.

Hi Jerry-thanks!
good and interesting point!

[RockySullivan]

And the Condy's Fluid continued to mask the smell after the Whitehall torso was dumped to buy the killer more time still. I don't think it was used to preserve the parts so they would be found, but to mask the smell so they weren't for a few more days.

[jerryd]

jer, don't you think the reason condy's fluid was used was to hide the smell while the killer kept the parts until he could dispose of them?

I do, yes.

[Abby Normal]

Jer, I know you've been over this before..but do you think it is a coincidence that Condy's fluid was developed in Battersea at old factory Condy's mother inherited. How popular was the chemical and in what professions was it used? Did the killer use Condy's fluid and not the powder/crystal form?
From the wiki: Advertisements that appeared in the Kingston newspaper The Gleaner[2] during the 1860s and 1870s claimed that Condy’s fluid was used
To prevent the communication of Infectious Diseases
To purify Sick Rooms and the Wards of Hospitals and Crowded Places.
To disinfect water
To purify Stagnant Water
To purify Cattle Dog and where offensive matter lies about.
To ensure Purity of Water employed for drinking -which frequently contains much organic matter
To purify fever wards or -in cases of death- from a contagious disease or to prevent offensive effluvia arising from a dead body
To purify sick persons
To deprive Night-chairs of offensive odour
To purify the atmosphere of Rooms in which there are Dead for the Visits of Undertakers and Jurymen
To sweeten Musty odours
To destroy Canker and Fungus on Trees
To purify Bilge Water in a Ship's Well To parity with the Interior or Hold of a Ship
To extirpate from Fowl-Houses and to preserve the health of Fowl
To disinfect the Sail while emptying Cess-pools

Hi Rocky
Do you know where I can get some of this stuff?

[RockySullivan]

Hi Rocky
Do you know where I can get some of this stuff?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Condys-crystals-or-potassium-permanganate-concentrate-4-Medicine-survival-stain-/252229711595?hash=item3aba0ff6eb:g:qFcAAOxypthRxrE1

[Abby Normal]

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Condys-cryst...cAAOxypthRxrE1

dude I was kidding.

but thanks anyway. lol!

[Joshua Rogan]

Abby,

In addition to what you have said here, the victims were cut up very close to their deaths according to the doctors. The Whitehall victim's arm seems to have been discarded very soon after death. Her torso, however, found in the vault, showed signs of the use of Condy's fluid which masks smell and is a preservant. The killer could have used quick lime instead, which would have made the body decay faster and reduce it to bone quicker, but he didn't. He must have stored the torso at his bolthole for some period of time before depositing it in the vault. I think he was waiting for the right time to get her body in there. Whether or not that was days, or weeks, I don't know. Dr. Bond seems to think she was in there since mid to late August. The examination of the arm by Dr. Neville and six witnesses working at the site throw doubt (for me anyways) onto Bond's conclusion.

Hi Jerry,
Can I ask where the report of Condy's fluid comes from? Was it from the doctors, the press or elsewhere? Only I happened to read a press report just yesterday that said as soon as the body arrived at the mortuary it was disinfected.
I can't find any mention of it in A System of Legal Medicine, which I would have expected if it could have affected the decomposition rate.

[RockySullivan]

dude I was kidding.

but thanks anyway. lol!

No ****! But you're welcome

[jerryd]

do we have a Frankenstein like thing going on here?

There is a common factor in all the torso cases from 1873 to 1889 minus the Pinchin Torso. Dr. Bond. He attended all the cases except the Pinchin torso. At least I haven't seen mention of his direct involvement in that case. According to information from a poster on here named Elmore77, Dr. Bond had left for his annual hunt on September 10th, 1889 and may be the reason he did not attend?

Here is an interesting newsclipping from the 1873 torso case posted a few years ago here on Casebook by Archaic. I am only posting a portion of his article. (The bold is mine) It reminded me of the "Frankenstein" theory.

On the advice of the Acting Chief Surgeon, Metropolitan Police, Dr. Bond, the corpse was "built up" by sewing together the parts. The face was more of a challenge, as the nose and chin had been cut off, and the head had been scalped. The skin on the face of the victim was fitted "as naturally as possible" over a butcher's block. Even though this early attempt at forensic reconstruction was carried out with "ingenuity and skill," the body would only be recognizable by those "intimately acquainted with the physical characteristics of the deceased."

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry,
Can I ask where the report of Condy's fluid comes from? Was it from the doctors, the press or elsewhere? Only I happened to read a press report just yesterday that said as soon as the body arrived at the mortuary it was disinfected.
I can't find any mention of it in A System of Legal Medicine, which I would have expected if it could have affected the decomposition rate.

Hi Joshua,

I had it in my mind it came from a press report but I actually got that information from The Forgotten Victims by Paul Begg. Now I remember why I always used the information somewhat cautiously (which I hope I didn't give the wrong impression here) because it was stated by a journalist that witnessed the torso that due to the reddish hue on the body he felt it may have been sprinkled with Condy's Fluid. Not a professional opinion it seems.