Same motive = same killer

[Sam Flynn]

perhaps harder to piece together but obviously not harder to find!

Not all of them were found, and not all of them were found at once. Even where this was not the case, distributing the parts in multiple locations, and/or dropping them into a fast-flowing river, was almost certainly intended to make them more difficult to find and piece together.

[Elamarna]

Not commenting much on this thread at moment because I see few facts to comment on.
It's mainly opinion.
Maybe when Christer completes the on going research he mentioned we will have something tangible to discuss.


Steve

Let me correct that, I meant few NEW facts,

There has been some really great stuff posted here on both sides of the debate, however I detect little movement of anyone's position.


Steve

[Sam Flynn]

It´nice of you to offer to help, and I gladly accept it - please explain to me why a London killer cannot burn victims on a bonfire to make them go away!

Owner-occupancy was very much lower in the 19th Century, and there was much less privacy overall. Although Nilsen lived in rented accommodation whilst at Cricklewood, he had easy and exclusive access to the back garden.

[Abby Normal]

Not all of them were found, and not all of them were found at once. Even where this was not the case, distributing the parts in multiple locations, and/or dropping them into a fast-flowing river, was almost certainly intended to make them more difficult to find and piece together.

I couldn't disagree more Sam-at least with the "more difficult to find" argument.

they were all found quite easily.

I mean cmon. Pinchin in the middle of the street, shelley estate, a park, in a currently being contructed building?

something was going on here, but it wasn't hiding, that's for sure.

add to that-someone who could lure women back to his abode, kill and dismemeber them could have easily made them disappear entirely if he wanted to IMHO.

[Sam Flynn]

I couldn't disagree more Sam-at least with the "more difficult to find" argument.

I don't mean "hiding", Abby, just making the individual bits more difficult to find in one go, which is what transpired.

Scattered body parts would certainly have been far more difficult to find than a Chapman or an Eddowes.

[Abby Normal]

I don't mean "hiding", Abby, just making the individual bits more difficult to find in one go, which is what transpired.

Scattered body parts would certainly have been far more difficult to find than a Chapman or an Eddowes.

OK got it-thanks for clarifying!

[Joshua Rogan]

Ok, so, the Rainham torso pieces found in the Regent's Canal (which isn't tidal); deposited by a pedestrian or from a boat?

[Debra A]

The "dump to get rid of" approach applies to non-river locations as well. Dump it in a vault on a building site, stuff it in a railway arch, chuck it in the Thames... it all amounts to the same thing.

Either is a world removed from "kill her in a public place, slash her open, remove her organs and leave her there".

Police were of the opinion that the remains of Elizabeth Jackson were thrown from the Albert Bridge in the early hours of the morning the first parcel was found. John Savage (who is well qualified to do so) did calculations involving historical high tide tables and calculating the speed of flow of the river and concluded that the first parcel found at Horselydown mid morning could have been thrown from the Albert Bridge around 4.45am. This coincided with the time that the wicket gate entrance to Battersea Park was also opened off that bridge, although the 'frame ground' area of the park that the Battersea Park remains were found in was directly below the bridge road and could have been thrown from there.

Given all that, it still doesn't explain why a thigh was found in the gardens of Shelley House on the opposite side to Battersea Park and a way along the embankment, The thigh had been thrown from the embankment apparently as it broke the tops of the bushes. Either that thigh was thrown first or held on to after bridge disposal. Either way, it seems to have been given special treatment when it could have so easily gone the way of the other remains much more easily.

[Sam Flynn]

it still doesn't explain why a thigh was found in the gardens of Shelley House on the opposite side to Battersea Park and a way along the embankment, The thigh had been thrown from the embankment apparently as it broke the tops of the bushes. Either that thigh was thrown first or held on to after bridge disposal. Either way, it seems to have been given special treatment when it could have so easily gone the way of the other remains much more easily.

True enough, Debs.

[jerryd]

The only plan I've seen was in a Ripperologist article a few months ago, but it was sadly lacking in detail. I seem to be unable to access the index so am unable to say which issue.

That´s too bad - anything would help to make the picture clearer.

The sketch of the vault is included in Rob's article.

http://www.ripperologist.biz/pdf/ripperologist133.pdf

[RockySullivan]

It´nice of you to offer to help, and I gladly accept it - please explain to me why a London killer cannot burn victims on a bonfire to make them go away! Since I think we may need to get som practical examples into the discussion instead of just musing on our own, I suggest we take a look at Dennis Nilsen who - undetected - burnt six victims on a bonfire behind his London residence in 1980.

When we have digested this, it would be interesting if you could tell me why it would not have worked in 1887-89. Did the killer not have matches? Was the weather very wet?

Any information you can offer is much appreciated, but for now, I really haven´t got the time to discuss the errand further.

Then again, I don´t have to, do I?

Fish, could Lechmere have done so in his backyard?

[Joshua Rogan]

Police were of the opinion that the remains of Elizabeth Jackson were thrown from the Albert Bridge in the early hours of the morning the first parcel was found. John Savage (who is well qualified to do so) did calculations involving historical high tide tables and calculating the speed of flow of the river and concluded that the first parcel found at Horselydown mid morning could have been thrown from the Albert Bridge around 4.45am. This coincided with the time that the wicket gate entrance to Battersea Park was also opened off that bridge, although the 'frame ground' area of the park that the Battersea Park remains were found in was directly below the bridge road and could have been thrown from there.

Given all that, it still doesn't explain why a thigh was found in the gardens of Shelley House on the opposite side to Battersea Park and a way along the embankment, The thigh had been thrown from the embankment apparently as it broke the tops of the bushes. Either that thigh was thrown first or held on to after bridge disposal. Either way, it seems to have been given special treatment when it could have so easily gone the way of the other remains much more easily.

Interesting stuff! Was any further work done to see if all the pieces were dumped at the same time, or a few bits a day over the course of the week?
Could we possibly trace the route taken? Assuming all pieces were dumped at the same time (more or less), could Torso man have simply strolled across Albert Bridge, occasionally lobbing a parcel from his wheelbarrow/costerbarrow/pickfords van over the side when nobody was about? If there was too much traffic (either road or river) he may have thrown parcels from the embankment, either into the river or the Shelley house.
Seems plausible enough?

The only outlier is the leg found at Wandsworth, which seems to have found it's way upstream....

[Abby Normal]

Police were of the opinion that the remains of Elizabeth Jackson were thrown from the Albert Bridge in the early hours of the morning the first parcel was found. John Savage (who is well qualified to do so) did calculations involving historical high tide tables and calculating the speed of flow of the river and concluded that the first parcel found at Horselydown mid morning could have been thrown from the Albert Bridge around 4.45am. This coincided with the time that the wicket gate entrance to Battersea Park was also opened off that bridge, although the 'frame ground' area of the park that the Battersea Park remains were found in was directly below the bridge road and could have been thrown from there.

Given all that, it still doesn't explain why a thigh was found in the gardens of Shelley House on the opposite side to Battersea Park and a way along the embankment, The thigh had been thrown from the embankment apparently as it broke the tops of the bushes. Either that thigh was thrown first or held on to after bridge disposal. Either way, it seems to have been given special treatment when it could have so easily gone the way of the other remains much more easily.

Thanks Debs

as usual-sterling stuff

[RockySullivan]

If the pieces were dumped at the same time, than it sounds like the idea was to let the river disperse the parts. So anchoring them down would not be constructive

[RockySullivan]

I couldn't disagree more Sam-at least with the "more difficult to find" argument.

they were all found quite easily.

I mean cmon. Pinchin in the middle of the street, shelley estate, a park, in a currently being contructed building?

something was going on here, but it wasn't hiding, that's for sure.

add to that-someone who could lure women back to his abode, kill and dismemeber them could have easily made them disappear entirely if he wanted to IMHO.

I think the point is just to be able to dispose of them where you won't be seen, do it quickly and get the **** out of there. You aren't going to find a way to make the body disappear. The Whitehall torso was a hidden place where perhaps the killer thought he could bury the parts. If not he might atleast buy a little time before it's found. And the more time between the victim's disappearance and when she's identified the better it is for the killer.