Same motive = same killer

[Fisherman]

Are you thinking it through thoroughly? How much weight was needed, what kind of weights, how heavy do they make the torso? Too heavy to get to the dump site? Less ambiguous than an old coat now there's a guy dumping a really heavy package! Maybe he didn't want the body parts to get weighted down right where he's dumping them? If the method he was using was working and the victims weren't unidentified than why weigh down the bodies? And after Jackson is identified we see a different disposal with the Pinchin torso

Although it may not seem so, I actually spend a lot of time trying to think things through.
Weighing down bodies/body parts is not a very hard thing to do. The simplest variety is to stuff the body/parts in a sack, add some stones and then dispose of it in deep water. One can also tie a rope around the body/parts and secure anything heavy to that rope. It is all fairly basic.

We actually donīt see something new with the Pinchin Street torso - he had dumped the Whitehall torso on dry land too. So much as every case has itīs own details that differ, there was nothing remarkably new about the Pinchin Street deed, as far as I can tell. Maybe you can explain what you find new?

[Fisherman]

Very good point. Why would an East End killer have known of this obscure location? The vault hadn't long been there, after all.

Why would an East End killer - or a West End killer or one from Gothenburg - not know about the erection of New Scotland Yard. Was it a secret?

[Fisherman]

It was certainly obscure, arguably implying some local knowledge as to its location, or even of its very existence.

Alternatively, if you scale the fence with the torso, and enter the building and work your way donwards, you simply end up in the cellar vaults for that reason.
It apslo apllies that it was a huge project, employing large amounts of labourers, who in turn would have had huge amounts of relatives and auaintances to speak about the project with.

If you want to out it beyond doubt that the Ripper could not possibly have been the man who placed the Whitehall torso in that vault, this is not any avenue that will work.

[RockySullivan]

Although it may not seem so, I actually spend a lot of time trying to think things through.
Weighing down bodies/body parts is not a very hard thing to do. The simplest variety is to stuff the body/parts in a sack, add some stones and then dispose of it in deep water. One can also tie a rope around the body/parts and secure anything heavy to that rope. It is all fairly basic.

We actually donīt see something new with the Pinchin Street torso - he had dumped the Whitehall torso on dry land too. So much as every case has itīs own details that differ, there was nothing remarkably new about the Pinchin Street deed, as far as I can tell. Maybe you can explain what you find new?

You didn't really address any of my points about why the killer might not have used weights. You just said it's easy and fairly basic, but you ignored all the reasons for why wasn't done.

The Whitehall torso was hidden anyway, possibly even planned to be buried. Pinchin torso was out on the street. Similar but different.

[Sam Flynn]

Why would an East End killer - or a West End killer or one from Gothenburg not know about the erection of New Scotland Yard. Was it a secret?

I'm talking about knowledge of the vault. Besides, I daresay there were plenty of people in London, not to mention Gothenburg, who were unaware of the building work itself. But let's stick to the precise location of the dump site, which clearly wouldn't have been widely known.

[Fisherman]

You didn't really address any of my points about why the killer might not have used weights. You just said it's easy and fairly basic, but you ignored all the reasons for why wasn't done.

The Whitehall torso was hidden anyway, possibly even planned to be buried. Pinchin torso was out on the street. Similar but different.

Beginning from the back, yes - similar, with some differences built in. And there will always be some differences.

Your points about why the killer possibly did not weigh down the parts are points that cannot be disproven - which is the case with many things. There are no sogns that the killer nourished any wish to weigh them down, only the very clear fact that IN NO CASE did he do so. Reasonably, he will have had the time to do it at least on some of the occasions, so the conclusion must be that he never wanted to do so. In my world, that is.

If the killer thought that flesh sinks in water, why did he not throw in the abdominal flaps from Jackson, her uterus, her cord, her placenta in parts, thinking they would sink? Why did he go through the trouble to pack them up in a parcel together, if he did mot mean for them to be found? Do you have a plausible answer for that?

Gareth reasons that the killer may have chosen varying locations for his dumpings so that the police and medicos would not be able to piece the case together, so to speak. Is it not instead true that the more dumoing places and sites, the likelier that at least some of the parts will be found?

Surely, you are not reasoning that the killers efforts were governed to hide the deeds?

[Fisherman]

I'm talking about knowledge of the vault. Besides, I daresay there were plenty of people in London, not to mention Gothenburg, who were unaware of the building work itself. But let's stick to the precise location of the dump site, which clearly wouldn't have been widely known.

But once you were on the site, why would you not be able to find it? It was an open site, and anybody could work his way down there.
William Brown, the foreman, said that he believed that only someone who knew the site or had had it described in detail would be able to find the vault where the torso was found - but why would we surmise that the killer was looking for that particular vault? In through the open door and down we go - how hard can it be? The vault was not closed off or anything like that. Why would we reason that the killer must have had any knowledge at all about the vault as he approached the building, carrying the torso with himself? Why could he not just have reasoned "Iīll put it somewhere in the foundations"?

As you say, the precise site would not have been widely known at all in any detail, but once somebody stepped into the building, what would prevent that somebody of aquaintaing himself with it?

And no matter how hard it was to find or not - why would the Ripper of all men be less likely to find it than any other man, save those who worked there and the architect? And why would he belong to your perceived part of the Londoners who were unaware that the building was being erected?

[Joshua Rogan]

Joshua thanks, are you sure that is true and it's not just that vault was extended or worked on in the last 3 months? I can't even picture what the vaults look like or the layout of them at all

Yes, the opera house foundations were started in 1875. This site contains a lot of info.

http://www.arthurlloyd.co.uk/NationalOperaHouseEmbankment.htm

Obviously, the foundations would need some conversion for police use. I believe the 3 months comes from one of the workmen at the inquest.

There is a rough plan of the building site somewhere, I'll try and find it. The New Scotland Yard building was built only on the northern half of the site.

[Joshua Rogan]

But once you were on the site, why would you not be able to find it? It was an open site, and anybody could work his way down there.
William Brown, the foreman, said that he believed that only someone who knew the site or had had it described in detail would ba able to find the vault where the torso was found - but why would we surmise that the killer was looking for that particular vault? In through the open door and down we go - how hard can it be? The vault was not closed off or anything like that. Why would we reason that the killer must have had any knowledge at all about the vault as he approaced the building, carrying the torso with himself?

Good point. But the foundations were said to be mazelike so maybe finding his way out again in darkness may have been more of an issue (unless he used a ball of string).
That said, it seems a long way to go (approx 80yds) to dump the torso in the darkness of a vault if it was intended to be discovered, when simply dumping it over the hoarding would have had just as much effect.

[Joshua Rogan]

Your points about why the killer possibly did not weigh down the parts are points that cannot be disproven - which is the case with many things. There are no sogns that the killer nourished any wish to weigh them down, only the very clear fact that IN NO CASE did he do so. Reasonably, he will have had the time to do it at least on some of the occasions, so the conclusion must be that he never wanted to do so. In my world, that is.

In no case where parts were recovered, perhaps. Maybe the parts not recovered were weighed down successfully? Or came loose at a later stage and floated out to sea unnoticed.

If the killer thought that flesh sinks in water, why did he not throw in the abdominal flaps from Jackson, her uterus, her cord, her placenta in parts, thinking they would sink? Why did he go through the trouble to pack them up in a parcel together, if he did mot mean for them to be found? Do you have a plausible answer for that?

I suspect the wrapping was a practical measure for transport convenience, so that blood and the products of putrefaction wouldn't seep out all over the place, and also so that undue attention wouldn't be drawn to them if casually observed.
The bear paw that was initially thought to be an arm was also wrapped up. Does that mean they were intended to be discovered?

Perhaps once the parts were deposited, the dumper simply didn't care whether they were discovered or not.

[RockySullivan]

Your points about why the killer possibly did not weigh down the parts are points that cannot be disproven - which is the case with many things. There are no sogns that the killer nourished any wish to weigh them down, only the very clear fact that IN NO CASE did he do so. Reasonably, he will have had the time to do it at least on some of the occasions, so the conclusion must be that he never wanted to do so. In my world, that is.

If the killer thought that flesh sinks in water, why did he not throw in the abdominal flaps from Jackson, her uterus, her cord, her placenta in parts, thinking they would sink? Why did he go through the trouble to pack them up in a parcel together, if he did mot mean for them to be found? Do you have a plausible answer for that?

I didn't say the killer wanted to weigh the bodies down you were the one who brought it up. I said everyone knows that's not how you dump a body. And then you posted an article about a killer who had attempted to weigh down body parts and in doing so led the police to the entire remains.
The killer wanted to spread the parts around. Sounds like he was smart not to anchor them down. Distributing the body parts the way he did only lead to the discovery in one case. Why would the killer think flesh sinks?

You brought up the body parts not being weighed down as proof that the killer wanted them found but what about the logistics of using weights? Just because they weren't weighed down doesn't mean he wanted them found. He didn't have a way to hide them where they wouldn't be found. Pinchin seems almost desperate to me like he once the body starts to smell he has to get rid of it. Neighbors, family or what have you. I think the body was probably cut up in a basement similar to Richardson's. If it's in Whitechapel a girl like Annie Chapman could come into your backyard and go down there. The police didn't even search the basement.

[RockySullivan]

But once you were on the site, why would you not be able to find it? It was an open site, and anybody could work his way down there.
William Brown, the foreman, said that he believed that only someone who knew the site or had had it described in detail would be able to find the vault where the torso was found - but why would we surmise that the killer was looking for that particular vault? In through the open door and down we go - how hard can it be? The vault was not closed off or anything like that. Why would we reason that the killer must have had any knowledge at all about the vault as he approached the building, carrying the torso with himself?

Fish, I have to say I disagree with you on this too. The foreman says only someone who works here would know this, maybe he means it's difficult to access. You are just blowing him off, like "what does he know he's only the foreman". If the foreman is implying he thinks someone who knows the vault did it, I wouldn't shrug that off

[Fisherman]

Good point. But the foundations were said to be mazelike so maybe finding his way out again in darkness may have been more of an issue (unless he used a ball of string).
That said, it seems a long way to go (approx 80yds) to dump the torso in the darkness of a vault if it was intended to be discovered, when simply dumping it over the hoarding would have had just as much effect.

Henry Lee Lucas once dumped a body outside the gate of a prison. There may well have been reasons for the killer to search out the deepest foundations of theo building, there is no telling. Otherwise, just as you say, he could have thrown the torso over the hoarding, like he did on the Shelley estate. To me, the reasonable conclusion is that there was a meaning behind what he did.

I would very much like to see a plan of the vaults; I know I have seen something along those lines, but a comprehensive plan allowing us all to see how the vaults were constructed would be nice.

As for finding his way out, I cannot find my way out of anything myself. I make a turn somewhere and then I am hopelessly lost.
My brother, on the other hand, only needs to look at a map, and then he can navigate without same map five kilometres into the woods to find a miniscula pond or something.

Some have no problems at all with these things. Some have all the problems in the world. The good thing is that this absolved myself from being the dumper of the torso - if I were, I would still be doing the rounds over there...

[Michael W Richards]

He didn't specifically mention the uterus, but referred to the "pelvic viscera", and apparently clarified what he meant for the benefit of his audience: "that includes the rectum, uterus and bladder". Quite what he meant by "includes" is anyone's guess, as there's not much else, unless he omitted to mention the fallopian tubes, ovaries and vagina for the sake of brevity.

I think what you've been saying Gareth could also be applied to the question of MO. I believe that multiple killers, if doing so because of compulsion, would tend to kill using tried and tested methodologies, venturing down new streets where body disposal and disjointing seem incompatible with what was done to Annie, (I use Annie because I believe hers is the murder that defines this period, and the killer).

Its also the only murder that caused authorities to strongly consider a medical student grade skill set.

[Abby Normal]

I was speaking about the torso murders as a whole. In specific cases, why not go for a wide scatter, if that further decreased the possibility of all the parts being found and an identification being made? (As a parallel, I got a new payment card yesterday and chopped up my old one. As I've always done, I put some of the pieces in my domestic trash, and dropped off the other pieces in various public rubbish bins when I went on my evening walk. Not because I'm a criminal mastermind, but because I'm a bit paranoid about security )

Hi sam
Yeah but when they do scatter they make clear attempts to hide. The Shelley estate victim I think pretty much finishes the dumping in the river just to get rid of theory.

Add to that Whitehall and pinchin and I think there is obviously something more than just MO of dumping going on here. There’s some meaning to the killer here.