Same motive = same killer

[Fisherman]

Why do I have this sinking feeling that the debate is about to become one of semantics again...?

[Fisherman]

But what you rely on is nothing more than opinions past and present, all sadly lacking in primary evidence to back up those opinions to prove that the torsos were all the subject of a singular serial killer.

Yes, verdicts of wilful murder were brought in on several of the bodies, but as is known wilful murder encompasses death through other means other than murder. Which is clearly the case of Jackson, and you might want to read Debs posts on forums on the Jackson case very informative, and goes to what I have been saying from the outset that Jackson was not a murder victim, remove her from you list of similarities and your therory doesnt look so good.

And I keep saying that no specific causes of death were identified in any of the torsos, so again the verdicts were wrong in my opinion because there was no cause of death discovered. The proper verdicts should have either been an open one, or as was the case with many of the bodies fished out of the river "Found dead"

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Trevor, it is not "clearly the case" that Jackson was not murdered. Not in the universe I am living in.

[Fisherman]

What do you mean neex not come up?

Its not a question but a legitamate practical/anatomical/surgery or butchery point.

You obviously do not wish to even look at the point!

The abdomenial wall? Yes the whole of the area commonly referred to as the abdomen.

The back is rarely refered to as the abdomen, so that leaves the sides and the front, what other parts are you thinking of?

Steve

I was rather wondering which parts YOU were thinking of, since you spoke of the "abdomen" and not the abdominal wall. The last time somebody tried to make a meal out of this was when Gareth said that the journalists were not to be relied upon since they said that the two flaps made up the lower part of a womans abdomen. AHA! Said Gareth - the cheating bastards are talking about the abdomen when we know it was only the wall that was cut! So therefore, the journalists were not to be taken seriously!

You see, it is antics like these that make me a bit wary about people speaking about how I would call any part cut from "the abdomen" a flap. And that is why I say that there need be no such discussion, since the wall only was what is being scrutinized.

If you still don´t get what I am saying, you must rephrase your question, Steve.

If you are saying that we cannot compare the flaps, then I have said that long before you. And I have added that the true issue is that there were substantial flaps cut away from the abdominal wall in wach of the three cases I refer to, and REGARDLESS OF THE SHAPE OF THE FLAPS, this is a mindblowing similarity of a practice that is utterly rare.

[Fisherman]

Any researcher who says those who hold a different opinion, without solid evidence to support their own view, are either bias or ignorant, has truly lost the ability to carryout objective researcher or logical thinking.

Steve

The similarities inbetween the series IS solid evidence. We know for certain that these similarities were present and we know that no comparable set of odd differences has been found in any other two cases of serial murder, so we are on safe ground when saying that one killer only is the only logical solution.

You should also be aware that objective reseach (I am not the one interpreting away here) and logical thinking ( I am the one sticking with the statistics) are the prime factors behind my position.

Sluggish, unsubstantiated denial was never my thing anyway.

[Elamarna]

The question need not come up, since we know that it was the abdominal WALL the flaps were cut from. That rules out all the other parts of the abdomen.

It deserves mentioning that I was not the one who introduced the term "flaps" - it was the medicos back in the late 19:th century.

What do you mean need not come up?

Its not a question but a legitamate practical/anatomical/surgery or butchery point.

You obviously do not wish to even look at the point!

The abdomenial wall? Yes the whole of the area commonly referred to as the abdomen.

The back is rarely refered to as the abdomen, so that leaves the sides and the front, what other parts are you thinking of?

Steve

[Trevor Marriott]

I can do so against the backdrop of how we can identify the man behind the torso deeds as the man against the Ripper deeds, on account of how there are numerous very odd similarities inbetween the series.

BOTH series have inclusions of taken out uteri, abdominal walls being cut away in large flaps, hearts being taken out and so on. Since both the perceived series appeared at the same time and in the same town, it is extremely indicative of a common originator (you should know, having been a copper yourself, Trevor - must I teach you your job?).

So there you are - we know that the Ripper victims were murdered, and since the same man apparently perpetrated the torso series too, it stands to reason that the police and medicos at the time and the historians ever after have been absolutely correct in naming the torso series one of murders. And that is why not just I, but close to all who have studied these cases, speak of a serial killer when we speak of the torso man. It´s a fair bet that won´t change.

But what you rely on is nothing more than opinions past and present, all sadly lacking in primary evidence to back up those opinions to prove that the torsos were all the subject of a singular serial killer.

Yes, verdicts of wilful murder were brought in on several of the bodies, but as is known wilful murder encompasses death through other means other than murder. Which is clearly the case of Jackson, and you might want to read Debs posts on forums on the Jackson case very informative, and goes to what I have been saying from the outset that Jackson was not a murder victim, remove her from you list of similarities and your therory doesnt look so good.

And I keep saying that no specific causes of death were identified in any of the torsos, so again the verdicts were wrong in my opinion because there was no cause of death discovered. The proper verdicts should have either been an open one, or as was the case with many of the bodies fished out of the river "Found dead"

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Elamarna]

Oh, no - I am not alone in my thinking. But basically, if you beleive in two killers, you ARE biased or ignorant. I could lie about it, I suppose, to ease the pain - but why would I?

Any researcher who says those who hold a different opinion, without solid evidence to support their own view, are either bias or ignorant, has truly lost the ability to carryout objective researcher or logical thinking.

Steve

[Fisherman]

Lets be honest here guys, any and i mean any section of abdomen cut away could by Christer's definition be termed flaps.
Steve

The question need not come up, since we know that it was the abdominal WALL the flaps were cut from. That rules out all the other parts of the abdomen.

It deserves mentioning that I was not the one who introduced the term "flaps" - it was the medicos back in the late 19:th century.

[Fisherman]

Didnt you say a while ago that you had other info that you were holding back?

I did, yes. There is what seemingly is a common factor behind the appearances of the victims. It has to do with the inspiration grounds for the deeds, and I find it quite compelling myself.

That, however, was never a guarantee that others would be swayed in equal degree ...

[Elamarna]

"... and who took away the abdominal wall in large flaps"

Unlike Kelly, Jackson's killer did not take away her abdominal wall, and the two strips of flesh that he did cut out do not begin to compare with the three HUGE panels of flesh that laid Kelly's abdomen completely open.

Lets be honest here guys, any and i mean any section of abdomen cut away could by Christer's definition be termed flaps. I was discussing this will a former colleague yesterday and the view was that "flap" as in cut away in "large flaps" is totally meaningless if one is attemting to look for similarities. My colleague added that given the abdomen can be viewed as a cylinder, and section removed would but for the last cut be a flap, the term gives no anatomical or diagnostic information to allow one to make any comparison at all.


I seriously doubt Christer will accept such, but so be it.


Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

Oh, no - I am not alone in my thinking. But basically, if you beleive in two killers, you ARE biased or ignorant. I could lie about it, I suppose, to ease the pain - but why would I?

Didnt you say a while ago that you had other info that you were holding back?

[Fisherman]

"... and who took away the abdominal wall in large flaps"

Unlike Kelly, Jackson's killer did not take away her abdominal wall, and the two strips of flesh that he did cut out do not begin to compare with the three HUGE panels of flesh that laid Kelly's abdomen completely open.

Once again, you don´t know that. There is every chance that Jacksons flaps were larger than Kellys, since they were two and Kellys three.

We should not try to fool people into believing that it is a fact that Jacksons flaps must have been narrow strips. It would not be honest. You know quite well that Joshua Rogan, Debra and me have all pointed to the possibility of really large flaps - and "large flaps" was one of the descriptions Hebbert used.

[Fisherman]

You are the first to complain and assume ‘victimhood’ if someone suggests that you are being selective with your facts or phrases but it appears to be ok for you to make the above quote. Everyone is ignorant except Fish. Everyone is biased except for Fish.

Oh, no - I am not alone in my thinking. But basically, if you beleive in two killers, you ARE biased or ignorant. I could lie about it, I suppose, to ease the pain - but why would I?

[Fisherman]

No we cant.

Excuse me? How can we NOT conclude that both series involved a person taking out a heart (Jackson, Kelly) a uterus (Chapman, Kelly, Jackson, Eddowes) and large flaps from the abdominal wall (Kelly, Jackson, Chapman)?

You seem bitter, Herlock? Go with the flow!

[Sam Flynn]

"... and who took away the abdominal wall in large flaps"

Unlike Kelly, Jackson's killer did not take away her abdominal wall, and the two strips of flesh that he did cut out do not begin to compare with the three HUGE panels of flesh that laid Kelly's abdomen completely open.