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  • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
    Very Interesting Jerry
    could I ask you a huge favor? could you do a single post where you do one section with BOW connection for torsos and then a section with BOW connection for ripper all in one post so we can have both all together in one place/post??

    also-is there any connection for your torso suspect wildbore and the ripper series?

    fyi-I like your pissed off at BOW possibility for where torsos were left. Ive always felt there is some significance to dumping/displaying sites for torso man other than random just to get rid of or hide.
    Abby,

    I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I could have included a lot more but I hope this works for now? The point of it is there were Board of Works employees and offices close to a lot of these murders and dump sites OR the sites had a Board of Works link to them.

    Board of Works and Ripper

    Martha Tabram and Emma Smith- (map from Chris Scott)



    Polly Nichols- Patrick Mulshaw, a night porter in the employ of the Whitechapel District Board of Works, living at 3, Rupert-street, Whitechapel, said on the night of this occurrence he was at the back of the Working Lads' Institute in Winthorpe-street [Winthrop-street]. He went on duty about a quarter to 5 in the afternoon, and remained until about five minutes to 6 the next morning, when he was relieved. He was watching some sewage works.

    Constable Neale at once called for assistance, and with the help of some scavengers who were cleaning the roads at the time, managed to carry the body to the mortuary, which is situated in the Pavilion Yard close by.

    Catherine Eddowes-James Blenkingsop, who was on duty as a watchman in St. James's-place (leading to the square), where some street improvements are taking place, states that about half-past one a respectably-dressed man came up to him and said, "Have you seen a man and a woman go through here?"

    In connection with the Mitre square murder, it may be mentioned that the foreman of the sewer hands who are engaged in Aldgate in sweeping the streets and clearing away the refuse, &c., in the early hours of the morning, has stated most positively that at the time when the murder is supposed to have been perpetrated he was standing not more than 20 yards away from the spot where the body was subsequently found by the constable and himself.

    Mary Jane Kelly-It had evidently been there for some hours, but several scavengers who were in the court at nine o'clock declare that the body was not there then. They might, however, have been mistaken, as the place is very dark.

    Rose Mylett- Clarke yard in green. Poplar Board of Works in red.



    George Lusk- Member of Metropolitan Board of Works

    Alice McKenzie and Frances Coles-

    1= AliceMcKenzie
    2= Whitechapel Board of Works Office
    3= Albert Bacherts home on Newnham Street
    4= Leman Street Police Station
    5= Frances Coles
    6= Board of Works Stone Yard and Pinchin torso



    Board of Works and Torso

    Tottenham Court Road torso- William Meagher, scavenger with the St. Giles Board of Works, stated that on the morning of October 23 he was sweeping Alfred Mews, Tottenham Court Road, when he saw a newspaper parcel about 15 yards away from Thexton's dustbin.He scooped it up into the cart and afterwards heard that it contained a human head.

    Battersea Park- Remains from Rainham torso and Elizabeth Jackson found in or near this location.

    From Wikipedia for the Metropolitan Board of Works.

    In 1856 the MBW obtained an amending act of parliament giving them the power to provide "parks, pleasure-grounds and open spaces", subject to parliamentary approval. Among the parks and open spaces acquired or laid by the board were:

    Battersea Park, Kennington Park, Victoria Park and the gardens surrounding Bethnal Green Museum (taken over from the Office of Works in 1887)


    Embankment-

    Also from Wikipedia for the Metropolitan Board of Works.

    The Board also created the three section Thames Embankment from 1864.
    (Victoria, Chelsea and Albert)

    Whitehall torso-

    Placed in the vault of the new police buildings (Scotland Yard) under construction in 1888. Was built on the Victoria Embankment. Construction began in 1887 and was overseen by the Metropolitan Board of Works. The majority of the construction was complete by late 1889 but opened in 1890.

    Shelley House- Thigh of Elizabeth Jackson thrown over railings into the garden of this estate. Was discovered by Claude Mellor who was a newspaper journalist later involved in the John Arnold story. Shelley house was built on the Chelsea Embankment on land initially owned by the Board of Works. William Tite (Tite street named after him) was a former member of the Board of Works. The Shelley Theatre, Oscar Wilde, Frank Miles, Whistler, Melville MacNaghten and others were residents of Tite Street. The Shelley house was at the corner of Tite Street and Chelsea Embankment.

    Pinchin torso-

    The ground belonged to the Whitechapel District Board of Works, and was got in exchange for another piece of ground. It was used for stone-breaking. The police had no right there, as it was private property.


    As far as Wildbore and connections to ripper murders? Not really. At a stretch, though, I bet I could put him in the company of Alice McKenzie at some point in his life. Alice was said to have been going back to the pub to meet a man she knew at Tottenham, this was shortly before she was murdered. Wildbore lived in Tottenham in the early 1880's before he moved to Battersea. He was also born in a suburb of Peterborough. We now know Alice was surely born in Peterborough and lived in Leicester as well (thanks to Gary B. and others). Wildbore lived with an uncle in Leicester when he was a 16 year old carpenter. When he moved to Battersea he lives on Maysoule Road. Maysoule was less than a mile from Wandsworth Prison where many of the ripper victims were found to have been incarcerated (thanks Debs).

    Polly Nichols was in service to the Cowdrys in Wandsworth in 1888. Again, less than a mile from Wildbore's residence. That's stretching it as much as I can, , but that's really all there is to connect with the ripper victims. The torso's, however, I think I have built a stronger case, even though it is highly circumstantial, as usual.

    Regarding the Rose Mylett case and Wildbore, just below the map I posted for her, in the Commercial docks, John Grover had a timber holding yard in later years. Wildbore worked for Grover as a carpenter.
    Last edited by jerryd; 04-09-2018, 06:27 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by curious View Post
      What is the order -- in time -- of the letter and predictions. Which came first?
      Henry Moore and R Harding Davis. (Pinchin torso)

      Philadelphia journalist, Mr. R. Harding Davis, has been publishing in a syndicate of American papers, an account of a night he spent upon the scene of the Whitechapel murders, towards the end of August, in the company of Police Inspector Moore, in the course of which some interesting statements occur.....

      ....It had been a five hours' walk through more misery, vice and crime than can perhaps be found in as small a space, less than a square mile in any other great city. There had been only eight murders then. And as we neared the station I remember the inspector's pointing into the dark arches of the London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway, and saying: "Now, what a place for a murder that would be. " A week later, while I was in mid-ocean on my way back, the body of the ninth victim was found just under those very arches, and not three minutes' walk from the police station.

      John Arnold (Pinchin torso)

      Reported body on the morning of Sunday, September 8th, 1889. A search was made by the Herald journalists that took the report from Arnold and no body was found near Backchurch Lane. Body was found on Tuesday, September 10th at the corner of Pinchin Street and Backchurch Lane under a railway arch. The body was not there after a few passes from the PC and then appeared on his next go around.

      Ipswich Article (Mary Jane Kelly)

      Published on 2nd November 1888. Body was found on November 9th, 1888.
      Last edited by jerryd; 04-09-2018, 07:00 PM.

      Comment


      • One interesting point in regard to John Arnold's report and the Whitehall report the day previous to that find. Arnold and the mysterious other person both asked for a reward. In fact, they both may have been John Arnold.

        It's also interesting that the day before (Monday) the Whitehall report posted by Harry D. inquiring if a body had been found on the embankment (body was found on Tuesday), Frederick Wildbore had seen the parcel on Monday but claimed he thought it was an old coat. He saw it again on Monday night at works end. He saw it again early on Tuesday morning and showed it to his mate (Richard Lawrence) and it wasn't until Tuesday, late morning, he pulled his boss down in the vault to show him what turned out to be the torso of a woman.

        I have speculated in the past that a reward was possibly the motivation for the torso's.

        Comment


        • Thanks Jerry!
          Good stuff!
          "Is all that we see or seem
          but a dream within a dream?"

          -Edgar Allan Poe


          "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
          quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

          -Frederick G. Abberline

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abby Normal View Post
            Thanks Jerry!
            Good stuff!
            No problem, Abby.

            I also located the St. Giles Board of Works. They were the street cleaners for Tottenham Court Road. William Meagher worked for St. Giles Vestry, BoW. Some of the parts of the TCR torso were deposited over a railing in Bedford Square.

            Off topic a bit, but Thomas Conway, Jr. was listed as Parish Sweeper Vestry in 1901.

            Comment


            • Another little bit I found regarding the Polly Nichols murder.

              The Whitechapel Mortuary is a little brick building situated to the right of the large yard used by the Board of Works for the storage of their material.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                Henry Moore and R Harding Davis. (Pinchin torso)

                Philadelphia journalist, Mr. R. Harding Davis, has been publishing in a syndicate of American papers, an account of a night he spent upon the scene of the Whitechapel murders, towards the end of August, in the company of Police Inspector Moore, in the course of which some interesting statements occur.....

                ....It had been a five hours' walk through more misery, vice and crime than can perhaps be found in as small a space, less than a square mile in any other great city. There had been only eight murders then. And as we neared the station I remember the inspector's pointing into the dark arches of the London, Tilbury, and Southend Railway, and saying: "Now, what a place for a murder that would be. " A week later, while I was in mid-ocean on my way back, the body of the ninth victim was found just under those very arches, and not three minutes' walk from the police station.

                John Arnold (Pinchin torso)

                Reported body on the morning of Sunday, September 8th, 1889. A search was made by the Herald journalists that took the report from Arnold and no body was found near Backchurch Lane. Body was found on Tuesday, September 10th at the corner of Pinchin Street and Backchurch Lane under a railway arch. The body was not there after a few passes from the PC and then appeared on his next go around.

                Ipswich Article (Mary Jane Kelly)

                Published on 2nd November 1888. Body was found on November 9th, 1888.
                eerie -- and very disturbing.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by curious View Post
                  Bless your heart, Fisherman. And I mean that sincerely.

                  curious
                  Thatīs very nice of you. But I would prefer a simple "Okay, I see what you are saying now, and I understand how the Ripper must be legally regarded as possibly having gone furthest in premeditation."

                  But hey, if that is not up for grabs, a blessed heart is not all that bad either.
                  Last edited by Fisherman; 04-09-2018, 10:10 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                    Yes, that is quite likely. But the fact of the matter is that we know that the Ripper carried a weapon and we donīt know that the Torso killer did.
                    Such stringent logic, very admirable.

                    Let’s try that on another argument:

                    the fact of the matter is that we know that the Ripper victims were murdered and we donīt know that the Torso “victims” were.

                    Or:

                    the fact of the matter is that we know that the Ripper existed (even if we cannot be certain of his total number of victims) and we donīt know that the Torso killer did.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                      The Whitechapel Mortuary is a little brick building situated to the right of the large yard used by the Board of Works for the storage of their material.
                      This Metropolitan Board of Works stuff is interesting in its own right, and arguably deserves its own thread. It would be a pity to see all this info buried amidst the "yes he was/no he wasn't" ping-pong of the Torso/Ripper discussions.
                      Kind regards, Sam Flynn

                      "Suche Nullen" (Nietzsche, Götzendämmerung, 1888)

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                        I have speculated in the past that a reward was possibly the motivation for the torso's.
                        You never know. There have been serial kilers who have tried to profit financially from their misdeeds. It wouldn't be the chief motivating factor, though.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by jerryd View Post
                          Abby,

                          I apologize in advance for the length of this post. I could have included a lot more but I hope this works for now? The point of it is there were Board of Works employees and offices close to a lot of these murders and dump sites OR the sites had a Board of Works link to them
                          Very interesting; thank you

                          Comment


                          • I have a theory that the Whitehall mystery was a response from Fenian activists. Perhaps based on a misunderstanding.
                            It depends to what extent the police were using the pretext of the Whitechapel murders to inquire into their activities.
                            I could understand how the murder of Elizabeth Stride would seem to be conveniently located, giving the police access to a club which they may have suspected had among its members anarchists, communists and other undesirables.
                            There is a newspaper reports that stated that the police were attempting to buy drinks at the club, which seems an odd thing to be doing given there was a knife wielding maniac on the loose. Or were they looking for information based on the threat of prosecution?
                            Given the Irish accent of the man asking for Lusk's address and the cod Irish of the From Hell letter, it may have been a 'We know what you're doing' response.

                            All the best.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fisherman View Post
                              I dread to mention it, but what is the likelihood of two such "predictions" coming true some little time after they were supposed to...? In the same town and time, once again? Itīs the strangest thing.
                              It very strongly suggests these are not predictions and that the I for many is involved .


                              STEVE

                              Comment


                              • I keep seeing people post that the torso victims might not have been murdered.
                                How is this possible?
                                "Is all that we see or seem
                                but a dream within a dream?"

                                -Edgar Allan Poe


                                "...the man and the peaked cap he is said to have worn
                                quite tallies with the descriptions I got of him."

                                -Frederick G. Abberline

                                Comment

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