Same motive = same killer

[Fisherman]

I agree. I often wonder whether the perpetrator(s) hadn't been in some kind of relationship with these women, and felt compelled to bump them off and dispose of their anonymised remains.

Jackson was a prostitute. Relationships with prostitutes are normally short ones.

At times, though, I imagine that the Torso killer had at least somewhat longer relationships with his victims. Then I tell myself that is only because I know that Jackson had been treated to a place to live by somebody called "Charlie" before she took up with Fairclough...

Overall, since I am convinced that the series had the same originator, the logical answer to this question is that the killer was what serial killers almost always are - a killer of strangers.

[Herlock Sholmes]

No. And no.

Strange logic Fish.

Not impossible but it couldn’t have happened

[Sam Flynn]

I often wonder whether the perpetrator(s) hadn't been in some kind of relationship with these women, and felt compelled to bump them off and dispose of their anonymised remains.

Jackson was a prostitute. Relationships with prostitutes are normally short ones.

Prostitutes have boyfriends, husbands and pimps - which is a kind of relationship, too - and it's not unknown for prostitutes to have regular customers. Besides, Jackson was in fairly advanced pregnancy, which might suggest that she was, or had recently been, in a relationship at the time of her death.

[Abby Normal]

Hi Abby This is one of the reasons i have doubts about all the torso, if any are the work of Jack. Why change from an organized killer who took time to cut up his victims and discard the parts in different areas stretching miles apart without any witnesses over a period of time to then become a frenzied killer who murdered his victims in a short space of time in a very localized area, almost being interrupted in some of the killings to then go back to the MO he once had.
Also the lack of human heads in the cases {torso] indicates, possibly that he was trying to conceal the victims ID in case they where traced back to him. Note the Black Dahlia was cut in half but her head was still on the body with a grotesque grin if i am not mistaken which the killer had done. Why not to any of the Torso victims, Eddowes face seems to have been posed and perhaps Kellys as well. Lastly this is what the FBI profile says - As shown by the HITS analysis, the signature characteristics observed in the murders of
Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, and Kelly are extremely rare. At the center
of Jack the Ripper’s signature was the display of control over the victim through the use
of a knife to penetrate the victims’ bodies and desecrate their sexual regions. Five of the
six victims were stabbed repeatedly in the genital area. Stabbing and cutting wounds are
relatively common in murders, but trauma to the genital area is extremely rare—in less
than one tenth of one per cent of all murder cases in the HITS system.
And this is what Swanson said about Pinchin St - "absence of attack on genitals as in series of Whitechapel murders." Also FBI - The trunk was full of blood indicating that a hemorrhage
had not occurred. This also indicated that the throat could not have been cut. Finally Whitehall, Dr Bond - In connection with the heart there were indications that convinced me that the woman did not die of suffocation or drowning.
I know manual strangulation before Jack cut the throat of his victims as never been proved, but i feel that's how he subdued his victims. No throat cut Pinchin, no strangulation Whitehall hmm.

[/QUOTE]Hi Darryl

Hi Abby This is one of the reasons i have doubts about all the torso, if any are the work of Jack. Why change from an organized killer who took time to cut up his victims and discard the parts in different areas stretching miles apart without any witnesses over a period of time to then become a frenzied killer who murdered his victims in a short space of time in a very localized area, almost being interrupted in some of the killings to then go back to the MO he once had.

I think both torsoman and the ripper were very organized. both probably used a ruse to get the victims where they wanted to. Both never left any unintentional clues-weapon, dropped clothing etc. avoided detection and never caught.

and as ive said many times-the torso victims are when he had access to his chop shop and or cart and the ripper series is when he didn't and had to kill on the streets.

Also the lack of human heads in the cases {torso] indicates, possibly that he was trying to conceal the victims ID in case they where traced back to him. Note the Black Dahlia was cut in half but her head was still on the body with a grotesque grin if i am not mistaken which the killer had done. Why not to any of the Torso victims, Eddowes face seems to have been posed and perhaps Kellys as well.

I think that the heads may have sunk in the river or he kept them for a while and did something with them. we simply don't know. however in the 74 torso he cut the face off the victim. he may have gone to town on the heads/faces of the other torso victims but since they weren't recovered who knows.

Lastly this is what the FBI profile says - As shown by the HITS analysis, the signature characteristics observed in the murders of
Tabram, Nichols, Chapman, Stride, Eddowes, and Kelly are extremely rare. At the center
of Jack the Ripper’s signature was the display of control over the victim through the use
of a knife to penetrate the victims’ bodies and desecrate their sexual regions. Five of the
six victims were stabbed repeatedly in the genital area. Stabbing and cutting wounds are
relatively common in murders, but trauma to the genital area is extremely rare—in less
than one tenth of one per cent of all murder cases in the HITS system.
And this is what Swanson said about Pinchin St - "absence of attack on genitals as in series of Whitechapel murders." Also FBI - The trunk was full of blood indicating that a hemorrhage
had not occurred. This also indicated that the throat could not have been cut. Finally Whitehall, Dr Bond - In connection with the heart there were indications that convinced me that the woman did not die of suffocation or drowning.
I know manual strangulation before Jack cut the throat of his victims as never been proved, but i feel that's how he subdued his victims. No throat cut Pinchin, no strangulation Whitehall hmm.

[/QUOTE]
yes the abdoman and privates/uterus was targeted in the riopper series and In the torso series we have one for sure with jacksons uterus being taken and possibly others. plus the stomach flesh was taken in sections of kelly, chapman and jackson.

re strangulation-i think the ripper did strangle and maybe knocked out victims-the bruises on Eddowes faces? ibeleive. Kelly was already passed out so no need for strangling he just went straight for the cut throat. The heads were all eventually decapitaded from the torsos so we dont know for sure but since torso had his own chop shop he may have gotten them drunk/drugged and cut there necks then without needing to strangle. Plus on one there was evidence that she was hung upside down-to bleed out after cutting the neck perhaps?


I think if they were the same man, and I am in no way convinced they were,we have a serial killer who liked to cut up and into and remove body parts of women. No torture, no sexual assault in either. The rarest breed-A post mortem mutilator who liked to cut up bodies of dead women.

and I think the way he disposed had special significance-no concealment-Hide ID perhaps-but parts/bodies displayed. Shelley estate, new SY basement, pinchon street (in heart of ripper territory no less), the Thames and the ripper displays. Something is going on here too but what? marking his territory, polluting the city, making statements about the specific locations??

[Trevor Marriott]

A forensic pathologist would be eminently suited to answer the question, Trevor, so ask away, please. The worst thing that can happen is that he says he has no idea.

I am going to submit your question to Dr Biggs in exactly the way you worded it, along with a question from Debs. Whatever the reply is I hope you personally are going to accept it, and not reject if it goes against what you believe?

If anyone else has a medical question which has not already been covered regarding these torsos could they let me have it by tomorrow (sat)

https://www.trevormarriott.co.uk

[Ozzy]

I am going to submit your question to Dr Biggs in exactly the way you worded it, along with a question from Debs. Whatever the reply is I hope you personally are going to accept it, and not reject if it goes against what you believe?

If anyone else has a medical question which has not already been covered regarding these torsos could they let me have it by tomorrow (sat)

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Why would they personally accept it?
When you ask for an opinion from somebody who is experienced in a subject/area you're getting an informed opinion. It carries more weight, a lot more weight, than a layman's opinion, but that's about it.

[Debra A]

Prostitutes have boyfriends, husbands and pimps - which is a kind of relationship, too - and it's not unknown for prostitutes to have regular customers. Besides, Jackson was in fairly advanced pregnancy, which might suggest that she was, or had recently been, in a relationship at the time of her death.

She had been in a relationship with John Faircloth since before November 1888 he was released from prison in 1887 for deserting the Grenadier Guards for 7 years. He had contracted syphilis whilst in the army He was the father of her child. She travelled with him to Ipswich (they stayed a few days in Whitechapel en route) where he worked a as millstone grinder- his and his family's trade.

They returned to London in May and Faircloth then left her to look for work in other parts of the country. Elizabeth said she would stay with her mother for her confinement but in reality preferred to avoid her.

The Ipswich newspapers carried stories of the couple's life in Ipswich and tempestuous relationship and also stories of the strange ways of Faircloth and how he pretended to be illiterate and had a strange reaction when he was once photographed at the flour mill he was working at.She once gave him two black eyes but he was known to ill treat her.

He was broad shouldered, had a twisted nose, was pox marked, and was partially deaf through having perforated eardrums from birth. She was remembered as plump and pleasant with honey coloured hair. Faircloth was the prime suspect after Elizabeth's identification and was still at large when her remains washed up in the Thames but police tracked him down and he was found to have been nowhere near London at the time of Elizabeth's death.

[jerryd]

Also the lack of human heads in the cases {torso] indicates, possibly that he was trying to conceal the victims ID in case they where traced back to him. Note the Black Dahlia was cut in half but her head was still on the body with a grotesque grin if i am not mistaken which the killer had done. Why not to any of the Torso victims,

Hi DK,

The head was recovered in the 1884 case known as the Tottenham Road torso. And, the face was disfigured at the mouth with a cut from a knife. The eyes were plucked out of the head and the nose cut off.

[Fisherman]

Strange logic Fish.

Not impossible but it couldn’t have happened

I was wording myself economically. The long answer is "No, I really dont think that is a very credible suggestion. And no, it is not impossible, but very, very unlikely to my mind."

[Fisherman]

Prostitutes have boyfriends, husbands and pimps - which is a kind of relationship, too - and it's not unknown for prostitutes to have regular customers. Besides, Jackson was in fairly advanced pregnancy, which might suggest that she was, or had recently been, in a relationship at the time of her death.

Exceptions to the rule can always be suggested, yes. Normally, though, affaris with prostitutes are very short.

We must also consider how it wold fit very poorly with the predominant take on how the Torso man was clever, organized and planning his deeds, if he killed women with whom he had longstanding relationships. Such a thing would carry great risk with it.

My money is on both series procuring victims who were strangers to the killer or only very slightly aquainted to the killer.

[Fisherman]

I am going to submit your question to Dr Biggs in exactly the way you worded it, along with a question from Debs. Whatever the reply is I hope you personally are going to accept it, and not reject if it goes against what you believe?

If anyone else has a medical question which has not already been covered regarding these torsos could they let me have it by tomorrow (sat)

www.trevormarriott.co.uk

Do you always beforehand accept that you are going to agree with what people tell you, Trevor? Regardless of what that is?

I don´t.

I work from the assumption that Dr Biggs will hold the same opinion as every other expert in the filed, namely that dismemberment carried out on account of a deeply rooted need to cut into flesh and dismantle a body will be able to produce radicaly different and more varying results than dismemberment carried out for practical reasons only.

If Biggs denies this, he will be in conflict with the rest of his profession, and so I would be a fool to swear my allegiance to somebody about whom I know nothing at all when it comes to his knowledge in the field.

My purpose in asking the question was never to fond out what applies. I already know that. Instead, I wanted you to get in the know too, and clear away any misconception.

So yes, please ask Biggs, but no, I will not tie myself to a mast unboard an unknown vessel.

[Fisherman]

Why would they personally accept it?
When you ask for an opinion from somebody who is experienced in a subject/area you're getting an informed opinion. It carries more weight, a lot more weight, than a layman's opinion, but that's about it.

Exactly so. And the more information we get, the better it is, so I welcome Dr Biggs views. He will in all probability be as reliable a source as his colleauges, and the more of them we weigh together, the better. So far, I have not heard him say anything that goes against logic, but I have heard him answer the wrong questions every now and then. Not his fault, that, but annoying nevertheless.

Promising to uncritically accept what he says, however - no, it does not work that way.

[Fisherman]

Hi DK,

The head was recovered in the 1884 case known as the Tottenham Road torso. And, the face was disfigured at the mouth with a cut from a knife. The eyes were plucked out of the head and the nose cut off.

...and to regard the missing heads as something that tells the torso killer apart from the Ripper involves accepting that the Ripper would have scuttled off with a chopped-off head in his arms from each scene if he was able to do so.

[Darryl Kenyon]

Hi Jerry - The head was recovered in the 1884 case known as the Tottenham Road torso. And, the face was disfigured at the mouth with a cut from a knife. The eyes were plucked out of the head and the nose cut off.
Where is this info please ? I really need to read more on these murders, Any suggestions anyone ?
Regarding Tottenham i thought it was thought to be an abortion gone wrong, plus the head had been put in lime to try and conceal any ID. Sorry if i am wrong.

[Sam Flynn]

Regarding Tottenham i thought it was thought to be an abortion gone wrong, plus the head had been put in lime to try and conceal any ID. Sorry if i am wrong.

To avoid confusion, perhaps we shouldn't refer to "Tottenham" in this context. Tottenham is a district in North London, about ten miles away from the site of the Tottenham Court Road torso case. Perhaps we could use "TCR" for short.