Same motive = same killer

[Herlock Sholmes]

And the torso couldn't have been posed that way? And Chapman's legs couldn't have just been left that way? The only actual difference you've mentioned is that one was dismembered and one wasn't. That's enough to determine they couldn't possibly be the work of the same guy?

I don't understand your point Rocky. The Torso categorically wasn't posed like that. She was dumped on her stomach (already in an advanced state of decomposition.) There was no posing involved.

Chapman's legs could have been just left that way but as the other ripper victims were left in the same way it shows a ritual that was important to the ripper.

[Abby Normal]

And address, presumably.

We don’t know where they lived.

[Fisherman]

I don't understand your point Rocky. The Torso categorically wasn't posed like that. She was dumped on her stomach (already in an advanced state of decomposition.) There was no posing involved.

Chapman's legs could have been just left that way but as the other ripper victims were left in the same way it shows a ritual that was important to the ripper.

If you have a torso only, Herlock, and if you want to reach a maximum shock value with it, what should you do? How about placing it in the middle of a district where an infamous killer had reigned supreme a year before, for everyone to see?

[jerryd]

I don't understand your point Rocky. The Torso categorically wasn't posed like that. She was dumped on her stomach (already in an advanced state of decomposition.) There was no posing involved.

Chapman's legs could have been just left that way but as the other ripper victims were left in the same way it shows a ritual that was important to the ripper.

Advanced state of decomposition? She was found on September 10th and probably murdered on September 8th. Yes, she showed signs of decomposition but I would hardly call it advanced.

How do you pose a victim without legs the way the some of the WM victims were posed? The fact that he deposited them where he did would be a way of posing, in my opinion.

[Abby Normal]

As Abby pointed out in the beginning of this thread, the Torso & Ripper series both ostensibly ended in 1889, after a period of downtime. It's one thing to have two separate series of murders that involved mutilation, but it's something else to have this correlation in activity.

Bingo. Thanks Harry. I was waiting for someone to pick up on that VERY relevant similarity.

[Fisherman]

Bingo. Thanks Harry. I was waiting for someone to pick up on that VERY relevant similarity.

We are also looking at what may be seen as a possible simultaneous tapering off of the violence applied (MacKezie, the Pinchin Street torso). It´s a very good point, yes, Abby.

[jerryd]

Some don't see this as relevant, I do.

Annie Chapman- murdered September 8th, 1888

Whitehall Torso- possibility murdered September 8th, 1888 (according to Dr. Neville)

Pinchin Torso- probably murdered September 8th, 1889

[Abby Normal]

Some don't see this as relevant, I do.

Annie Chapman- murdered September 8th, 1888

Whitehall Torso- possibility murdered September 8th, 1888 (according to Dr. Neville)

Pinchin Torso- probably murdered September 8th, 1889

that sept 8 had special significance to torsoripper??

[jerryd]

that sept 8 had special significance to torsoripper??

I have no clue, Abby. But it sure makes ya wonder and could possibly link the two series.

That and the fact that John Arnold happens to fit several of the descriptions of the man seen at the murder sites. Especially that of, blotchy man.

[Abby Normal]

I've just finished re-reading MJ Trow's book on The Torso Killings to refresh my memory and I have to say that I just don't see the ripper in these crimes. I think that we can tie ourselves up in knots debating cuts and methods of removing organs but these arguments are surely destined to end nowhere concrete.

The most important element for me is understanding that the ripper did what he did for a reason. He killed his victims and then left them on display in warped, pornographic poses; skirts raised, legs apart. Abdomen and genitals laid to the knife. He wanted/needed everyone to see his work. We don't know if he just hated women or prostitutes in particular but his message was something like 'women are whores,' or 'look what happens to whores when they meet Jack.' He had a motivation/compulsion to do what he did, how he did it.

The TK is different and markedly so. Victims likely to be killed indoors. Almost surgical dismemberment. Parcelling up of body parts. Many dumped where they might never have been found. TK was simply 'disposing' of bodies. No message there. We can't even be certain that the same person killed them and dismembered them.

Jack made no attempt to make his victims almost impossible to identify (he destroyed MJK's face but she was in her own room) but TK did. Why? Who knows but there must have been a reason and we can probably come up with a lengthy list of 'scenarios.' Maybe they were the victims of some form of unofficial/illegal form of medical experiments? Maybe they died in brothels and the madam/brothel owner didn't want the police sniffing around and it was known that someone was willing to make bodies disappear?

I'm not saying that they definately couldn't have been the same man but for me personally this massive difference overrides any other consideration. I just can't see TK and Jack as the same man.

Hi HS
full disclosure-I too have a problem with the difference in dismemberment and dumping/leaving of the bodies. both are tick marks against them being the same man IMHO.

however, we don't know where the killer/s lived nor how they got around do we? or where they worked,or where there bolt hole is.

did they work on a boat, have access to a cart?

Maybe they had a couple places of work? or a couple bolt holes. maybe worked in the west, lived closer to the east. maybe only had limited access to these places at certain times. or access to cart or boat at certain times?

The urge is there, but the situation changes. so the killer adapts.

[Abby Normal]

I have no clue, Abby. But it sure makes ya wonder and could possibly link the two series.

That and the fact that John Arnold happens to fit several of the descriptions of the man seen at the murder sites. Especially that of, blotchy man.

thanks-I favor Blotchy (and hutch) and its an interesting idea-but I don't want to get into specific suspects here. If you want to start a new thread about Arnold=hutch Ill be all over it!

[jerryd]

thanks-I favor Blotchy (and hutch) and its an interesting idea-but I don't want to get into specific suspects here. If you want to start a new thread about Arnold=hutch Ill be all over it!

Thanks Abby,

I was just trying to point out a link that could tie the two series together.

[Abby Normal]

Thanks Abby,

I was just trying to point out a link that could tie the two series together.

does John Arnold have anything to do with sept 8?

[jerryd]

does John Arnold have anything to do with sept 8?

It was on September 8th that he announced a Jack the Ripper murder in Backchurch Lane (Pinchin torso) that actually didn't happen until September 10th. I say actually didn't happen, it did, but the body was discovered 2 days after his announcement.

[Sam Flynn]

We don’t know where they lived.

Indeed, but we know one of them lived in Chelsea, not far from the "Battersea Triangle" which seems to be the origin of the majority of the jettisoned body parts from her, and other, cases.

Besides, where did he live? Or they - there could be more than one torso killer, and there quite probably was. Chances are that he/they lived not too far from the Battersea Triangle either.

Of course, those who would pin these murders on the Ripper will say that the Ripper commuted out of Whitechapel to dump the bodies, or commuted into Whitechapel if he fancied a temporary change of MO and start killing random women on the street with the police breathing down his neck.

Like I've said, it just doesn't add up.