Same motive = same killer

[Elamarna]

You bet I disagree!

Just for claritys´sake, Steve - how likely do you think it is with two late Victorian serial killers in London who cut necks, opened abdomens from pubes to ribs, took out uteri and cut large flaps of meat from the abdomen of their victims.

Just as likely as just the one killer? More likely? A bit less likely?

That is where the crux lies. There are no other examples of any two serial killer series on the same ground and at the same time and with so many similarities.

There will be a reason for that. But each to his own!

My Dear Christer

Talking about the likelihood of two or one killer moreor less likely as if such is scientific fact. It would be better called faux science.


So let's just leave it, we will not convince each other with what is currently available


STEVE

[Herlock Sholmes]

Because some of the murders were performed at a safe bolthole, while others were more brazen street attacks. Some strikes afforded the possibility to work on the bodies at leisure and others gave en adrenalin rush - and he liked both.
Just a suggestion, of course - but the fact remains that we MUST be able to resolve the matter if the differences, since the similarities are quite clear in their implications.

Once more, I must push that point: It is NOT the differences that are of interest here, it is the similarities. If you can accept that two simultaneously working serial killers in the same area both were into uterus-snatching, abdomen-cutting from sternum to pelvis, cutting necks, taking out hearts and lungs, carving away the abdominal walls in sections, then fine. It´s just that history cannot provide something that looks remotely like a parallel. It CAN however, offer many examples of serialists who have employed different methods of killing people. Make of that what you want, Herlock.



Yes, hack around in a two bodies and the similarity of hacking inside the bodies.
But taking out a uterus is not hacking around. It is a very focused matter.
Taking away the abdominal wall in sections is extremely rare and no example of random hacking either.
Nor is the taking out of the heart and lungs.

This goes way beyond hacking, Herlock. You need to weigh that in.

We don’t really need parallels Fish. This could have been the first time that two such killers operated at around the same time. However unlikely, it can’t be impossible. History is also replete with improbable coincidences. And so I would look at it by saying that if the dissimilarities are so pronounced there has to be a chance of it being the case that there were two killers. We can’t rely on ‘well it’s very unlikely so it can’t be true.’

So I could say that is it impossible that, for eg, my ‘crazed doctor/experimenter/disposer’ existed at the same time as Jack? It can’t be.

[Herlock Sholmes]

My Dear Christer

Talking about the likelihood of two over one as if such is scientific fact. It would be better called faux science.


So let's just leave it, we will not convince each other with what is currently available


STEVE

Hello Steve My point exactly.

How’s life in Buck’s Row by the way

[jerryd]

Hi Jerry
Thanks. Torso victims also had thigh flesh flayed off? I’m not sure if I have heard that before. Which ones?

Sorry for the delay in response. Just saw this. No evidence of thigh flesh being flayed off in other torso victims. I was trying to make a different point and probably worded this bad. Sorry.

I do have a question for the group, though. Do we know for sure the torso victims were killed in a "bolthole"? I know it seems to make more sense but.... many of the torso victim parts were not wrapped in a parcel at all or were wrapped in the victims own clothing. In the Rainham case, coarse sacking seems to have been used on some of the larger parts. The leg in the Whitehall vault was not covered with anything. The Pimlico arm was not found covered with anything.

We know from medical evidence the bodies were cut up almost immediately after death. In the case of E. Jackson the body parts seem to have entered the water about the Battersea area from one of the bridges and floated down the river to their discovery zones from there. Part of her torso was found in Battersea Park itself. Is there anything to suggest the victims were not killed and cut up near to or where they were found? If they were killed in an outdoor environment and left to be found or displayed to the public, this would count toward another similarity in operation of both series. Just a different part of town, of course.

[Abby Normal]

Sorry for the delay in response. Just saw this. No evidence of thigh flesh being flayed off in other torso victims. I was trying to make a different point and probably worded this bad. Sorry.

I do have a question for the group, though. Do we know for sure the torso victims were killed in a "bolthole"? I know it seems to make more sense but.... many of the torso victim parts were not wrapped in a parcel at all or were wrapped in the victims own clothing. In the Rainham case, coarse sacking seems to have been used on some of the larger parts. The leg in the Whitehall vault was not covered with anything. The Pimlico arm was not found covered with anything.

We know from medical evidence the bodies were cut up almost immediately after death. In the case of E. Jackson the body parts seem to have entered the water about the Battersea area from one of the bridges and floated down the river to their discovery zones from there. Part of her torso was found in Battersea Park itself. Is there anything to suggest the victims were not killed and cut up near to or where they were found? If they were killed in an outdoor environment and left to be found or displayed to the public, this would count toward another similarity in operation of both series. Just a different part of town, of course.

hi jerry
good question. Its a possibility to me, but only slightly. You would think that someone would have discovered these murder/dismemberment sites from all the blood. Plus you would think he needs more private location to do something like dismemberment?

[Elamarna]

Hello Steve My point exactly.

How’s life in Buck’s Row by the way

Hi HS.

Slow as I am trying to complete it on my phone, formatting is hell.

Laptop died.

I may post the summary here before the book is ready.
All the work is complete.

Does it show Lechmere was innocent or guilty? Neither, that was never the aim.
However many of the arguments used against him are shown to be less robust then some claim.

It will provide readers with a great resource, even if they reject All the arguments put forward.
All the witness statements, all the possible variations on The police beats and photo essays on those and the area of Bucks Row and how It has changed.

Given there are 3 suspects previously associated with this murder: Lechmere, Mann & Tomkins all are discussed and Mann discarded out of hand.

The other two are both interesting characters in their own right, and while I ultimately at The end of book1 do not think either are likely to be The killer, they remain on the table for further researcher.


Hope all is well


Steve

[Herlock Sholmes]

Hi HS.

Slow as I am trying to complete it on my phone, formatting is hell.

Laptop died.

I may post the summary here before the book is ready.
All the work is complete.

Does it show Lechmere was innocentor guilty? Neither, that was never the aim.
However many of the arguments used against him are shown to be less robust then some claim.

It will provide readers with a great resource, even if they reject All the arguments put forward.
All the witness statements, all the possible variations on The police beats and photo essays on those and the area of Bucks Row and how It has changed.

Given there are 3 suspects previously associated with this murder: Lechmere, Mann & Tomkins all are discussed and Mann discarded out of hand.

The other two are both interesting characters in their own right, and while I ultimately at The end of book1 do not think either are likely to be The killer, they remain on the table for further researcher.


Hope all is well


Steve


Work is
D

Typing any sizeable amount on a phone is hellish unless you are 14 of course!

I look forward to the book. Make sure you take a break. Have one (or 6) for me in The Bells

[Abby Normal]

My Dear Christer

Talking about the likelihood of two or one killer moreor less likely as if such is scientific fact. It would be better called faux science.


So let's just leave it, we will not convince each other with what is currently available


STEVE

uhmm. Faux science? no. first of all Fish never said anything about it being a scientific fact to begin with.

But if there are no serial killers who overlap in time and place, victimology and MO/sig (these are basic parmeters) then it actually could be called a fact.

but Its actually just a simple concept and question. and many sciences employ it. you can call it what you like but basically its just looking for number of similar occurances to find the rarity or commoness of an event.

[Abby Normal]

Hi HS.

Slow as I am trying to complete it on my phone, formatting is hell.

Laptop died.

I may post the summary here before the book is ready.
All the work is complete.

Does it show Lechmere was innocent or guilty? Neither, that was never the aim.
However many of the arguments used against him are shown to be less robust then some claim.

It will provide readers with a great resource, even if they reject All the arguments put forward.
All the witness statements, all the possible variations on The police beats and photo essays on those and the area of Bucks Row and how It has changed.

Given there are 3 suspects previously associated with this murder: Lechmere, Mann & Tomkins all are discussed and Mann discarded out of hand.

The other two are both interesting characters in their own right, and while I ultimately at The end of book1 do not think either are likely to be The killer, they remain on the table for further researcher.


Hope all is well


Steve

HI el
look forward to it also!

Is it going to include everything you've already posted here?

[Elamarna]

Typing any sizeable amount on a phone is hellish unless you are 14 of course!

I look forward to the book. Make sure you take a break. Have one (or 6) for me in The Bells

Last count its over 500 pages. Over 200 000 words. 150 images and photos. 50 sketch maps.

2/3 approx are appendices and resources.


Steve

[Elamarna]

HI el
look forward to it also!

Is it going to include everything you've already posted here?

Thanks Abby

Mitre Square next.


Steve

[Elamarna]

uhmm. Faux science? no. first of all Fish never said anything about it being a scientific fact to begin with.

But if there are no serial killers who overlap in time and place, victimology and MO/sig (these are basic parmeters) then it actually could be called a fact.

but Its actually just a simple concept and question. and many sciences employ it. you can call it what you like but basically its just looking for number of similar occurances to find the rarity or commoness of an event.

Depends how one views things Abby..

However I see little actual evidence ( and this may not be liked by some) to actually link all the Torso' s to the same individual. It more the majority are dumped in water, be that the Thames or canals. Now some will say, but they are all dismembered? Yes they are but over a very long period, I know some who subscribe to the single killer take the murders up to the turn of the 20th century. That's a very long period to be sure of a single hand.

Now I don't say that it is not possible there is a link to some of the Torsos but I am not at present convinced. And certainly not that murders from 1873( actuallyheard 72 used in conversation recently) to 1899 are linked.

Time hopefully, and research may give us a better idea.


Steve

[jerryd]

However I see little actual evidence ( and this may not be liked by some) to actually link all the Torso' s to the same individual.
Steve

Hi Steve,

Which do you personally link to the same individual?

[Fisherman]

What makes you say that, Fish?

This was in the Lancet at the time, Joshua - I mistook the knee joint for the ankle joint, though:

"Contrary to the popular opinion, the body has not been hacked, but dexterously cut up; the joints have been opened, and the bones neatly disarticulated, even the complicated joints at the ankle and the elbow, and it is only at the articulations of the hip-joint and shoulder that the bones have been sawn through."

I know I have also seen it remarked upon in another source, but I cannot remember where.

[Fisherman]

My Dear Christer

Talking about the likelihood of two or one killer moreor less likely as if such is scientific fact. It would be better called faux science.


So let's just leave it, we will not convince each other with what is currently available


STEVE

If yu want to leave it, please be my guest. It IS a fact that the more unusual a damage, the less likely two killers become.

Claiming otherwise is "faux science".